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Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

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Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#161

Post by pjc50 »

pjmlp wrote: post #156
ris wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The monolithic Linux kernel is just too big. What is it now, 20,000,000 lines? There's no hope of debugging that. It shows." I don't think you know what you're talking about. It shows. Name me one non-"monolithic" OS kernel in mainstream use that manages high throughput. And macos doesn't count as a microkernel.

Real time OSes used in high integrity systems, mobile radio stacks, car control systems, ...

Lower throughput. Almost by definition real-time systems focus on latency at the expense throughput.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#162

Post by keithpeter »

Sir_Substance wrote: post #146
keithpeter wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I can't close my office or loungeroom doors at the moment, because none of the three wifi adaptors I own work with ubuntu, so theres a massive network cable snaking through both." Homeplug[1] devices any good? I used a pair of those for a bit to save putting cat 5 in the wall (I'm lazy about DIY). Worked OK but I didn't need super-fast. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug

They're very expensive compared to wifi, especially compared to their performance, and based on anecdotal reports their lifespan isn't very good. How's your mileage been?

I used a couple of slower ones (German make, around £30 for the two from PC World, not the most economical outlet) for about three years until I got rid of the desktop PC. No issues. Just worked. Throughput fine at 4 mb/s Internet speeds which is all I used it for.

If you need AV speeds, and if you have 'unusual' wiring, best ask on an appropriate forum supporting home networking or something.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#163

Post by ggreer »

jkbyc wrote: post #92
brightball wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like a good way to cope with this, from a market standpoint, would be for Linux development to focus on specific laptop. If say, Dell, were to pay Ubuntu to test and verify for some of their specific laptops and then Ubuntu subsequently was able to list "100% Certified" laptops for purchase it could create an opening. Same thing with developing to put it on Apple laptops with that very specific hardware set, et…

Isn't this already happening? http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/desktop/

Beware. I went out of my way to get an Ubuntu certified laptop[1]. It took me months to get it to a usable state. Graphics drivers crashed or corrupted the screen[2]. Bluetooth didn't work. Wifi didn't work. While suspended to RAM, it drained 10% of the battery every hour. In short, it was a nightmare.

I've had it for almost two years now, and I've given up on getting Bluetooth to work. After resuming from suspend, the wifi works about half the time, and screen brightness is always set to maximum. It's tolerable, but I only use the laptop when I have to.

I doubt I'll ever buy a Linux laptop again, but if I do, I'll be sure to try it hands-on before buying.

1. The Lenovo X140e: http://www.ubuntu.com/certification/hardware/201309-14195/

2. https://twitter.com/ggreer/status/548923450640056321

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#164

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #160
ris wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Right, because most Linux proponents are kernel hackers." They don't have to be. All they have to do is not go around smugly suggesting they know better than kernel developers and they're ok in my books. Incidentally, precisely how many of those research kernels have become widely used, mainstream kernels capable of high-throughput? And do you really think it has turned out that way because the whole industry is ful…

I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where the software industry is always adopting the most technologically superior solutions by default. No industry works like this. YMMV on mainstream (they are widely adopted, though), but: OKL4, PikeOS, QNX... It's quite obvious you have no background on the issues and are using this as an opportunity for provocation.

> they are widely adopted, though

For some definition of "widely".

And feel free to stop adding personal attacks to your comments. They do not enhance the credibility of your posts.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#165

Post by superuser2 »

brightball wrote: post #72
Animats wrote: post #62

He's right. Many of the driver problems come from the fact that Linux finally worked on the desktop about the time desktop machines were replaced by laptops. Desktops with slots tended to have relatively well-defined hardware, and plugging in third party hardware was normal. This is much less true for laptops. OS development for laptops requires that laptop. It needs a Q/A organization which has one of everything you…

Seems like a good way to cope with this, from a market standpoint, would be for Linux development to focus on specific laptop. If say, Dell, were to pay Ubuntu to test and verify for some of their specific laptops and then Ubuntu subsequently was able to list "100% Certified" laptops for purchase it could create an opening. Same thing with developing to put it on Apple laptops with that very specific hardware set, et…

Nonconformity, customization, and choice are major reasons people use Linux instead of OSX, just as they are for Androids over iPhones. People who are okay with One Good Product Per Category are using Apple hardware already.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#166

Post by agumonkey »

nextos wrote: post #149
agumonkey wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On what machine btw ? I have a minimal system, but it boots in 4 seconds from BIOS to ion3 (arch). It's funny when the BIOS takes longer than booting. #coreboot

What hardware are you running coreboot on?

I'm not (at least for now, I have a spare compatible thinkpad), I was just implying that the BIOS is now the bottleneck.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#167

Post by Animats »

jacquesm wrote: post #154
ris wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The monolithic Linux kernel is just too big. What is it now, 20,000,000 lines? There's no hope of debugging that. It shows." I don't think you know what you're talking about. It shows. Name me one non-"monolithic" OS kernel in mainstream use that manages high throughput. And macos doesn't count as a microkernel.

QnX.

QNX is making a comeback, via robotics and automatic driving. All the Boston Dynamics robots ran QNX; all the hydraulic valves were coordinated by one CPU. The valve servoloop ran at 1KHz and the balance loop at 100Hz.

QNX is behind some automotive dashboards, and they're moving into automatic driving. They have some big announcement coming at CES in January.

But nobody runs QNX on the desktop any more. This year, they finally stopped supporting the self-hosted development environment. Ten years ago, you could run Firebird (pre-Firefox) and Thunderbird on a QNX desktop. But when QNX stopped offering a free version, free software development for it stopped.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#168

Post by jacquesm »

Animats wrote: post #167
jacquesm wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QnX.

QNX is making a comeback, via robotics and automatic driving. All the Boston Dynamics robots ran QNX; all the hydraulic valves were coordinated by one CPU. The valve servoloop ran at 1KHz and the balance loop at 100Hz. QNX is behind some automotive dashboards, and they're moving into automatic driving. They have some big announcement coming at CES in January. But nobody runs QNX on the desktop any more. This year, th…

I have a barebones re-implementation of QnX for the 32 bit x86, I don't have time enough to clean it up or port it to the 64 bit model. It blew the doors off the competition back in the day (about 2 decades ago), 200K context switches per second on a 33 MHz 486. Fast enough for real time control of all kinds of hardware and with a seamless path from a self hosting desktop environment to embedded hardware. I never got around to porting 'X' to it, but I did build a rudimentary window manager and some apps (terminal, calculator, some graphic demos to test the blitting software). Best demo was 250 tasks running independent graphics demos in windows without any noticeable lag or stutter. I really liked that project, some of the best code I ever wrote.

Re: Major Linux Problems on the Desktop, 2016 Edition

#170

Post by vezzy-fnord »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #164
vezzy-fnord wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what fantasy world you live in where the software industry is always adopting the most technologically superior solutions by default. No industry works like this. YMMV on mainstream (they are widely adopted, though), but: OKL4, PikeOS, QNX... It's quite obvious you have no background on the issues and are using this as an opportunity for provocation.

> they are widely adopted, though For some definition of "widely". And feel free to stop adding personal attacks to your comments. They do not enhance the credibility of your posts.

"Widely adopted" is not a synonym for "known by the average consumer".
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