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How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

danluu.com

61–70 of 267 posts

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#61

> well, we have some tweaks that didn’t make it into the paper. Every single time I've tried to implement a newish, reasonably complicated algorithm from a paper and contacted the authors when I've run into trouble, this is the reply I've gotten. How is it not normal? It's research after all, and if you've worked in research you should have a good idea how the paper mill works.

But is it expected?

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly a perfect example of WTF worthy behavior being treated as totally normal; that it's encoded that there's "leadership" and "not leadership" as binary job distinctions with distinct responsibilities. I've been in both types of cultures and, by far the healthier culture was the one in which "making the organization better" was treated as everyone's responsibility. I've seen very junior engineers drive qu…

> If you seriously believe that all (or most) companies disallow anyone not in leadership to improve things, I'd consider getting out of your current situation and seeing things again with clear eyes. I've been around a bunch, including the US Air Force, and I can confidently tell you that heavily hierarchical organizational culture is the norm, individuals contributors who want to have effects beyond their job scope…

The DoD (!) is hardly representative of the cultures being discussed in the linked article, which is about tech startups (with a bunch of examples from medicine too). Yes, there are worse examples, but those may be beyond help.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#63

This post seems so good and so self-evidently true that I'm surprised at the amount of pushback it's getting here. Not sure what else to say about it. Well, I'll say this- the "@flaky" thing is pretty mind-blowing. In my own company I have noticed many engineers have a disturbing level of comfort with deciding something is a "mystery". There are no mysteries in what we do. The test fails because something is fucked u…

It depends. I recall one project with flaky tests, and shortly after joining I decided to investigate. It turned out to be a problem with floating-point values in the shopping cart logic. Tests were using random item prices, so sometimes it appeared and sometimes not. I'm glad I found that one. :-) On the other hand I've seen something like @flaky used in the Ruby world to run Capybara tests with a lot of Ajax, where…

Yeah, I'm with you. Of course things can never be perfect but we should be striving to make them as perfect as we can. I've felt Selenium pain too.

But, and this is crucial-- notice how you understand why the tests were flappy. As opposed to just grumbling like "oh that dumb old thing again. I wish it would shut up, the thing totally works."

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you seriously believe that all (or most) companies disallow anyone not in leadership to improve things, I'd consider getting out of your current situation and seeing things again with clear eyes. I've been around a bunch, including the US Air Force, and I can confidently tell you that heavily hierarchical organizational culture is the norm, individuals contributors who want to have effects beyond their job scope…

The DoD (!) is hardly representative of the cultures being discussed in the linked article, which is about tech startups (with a bunch of examples from medicine too). Yes, there are worse examples, but those may be beyond help.

I fail to see how governmental organizations should fall outside the scope of the discussion.

And the Air Force is not the DoD. While, technically, the individual branches of the US military fall under the DoD, they all have very different organizational cultures, and the DoD has staff and culture of its own.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#65
Somehow tangential

"These hidden problems are the true gold standard of entrepreneurism and it’s amazing how little discussion there actually is about how to find them. It’s hardly a surprise though since they; as we can see, can be hard to find and I think there are a couple of reasons why.

Hidden problems aren’t obvious even to those who experience them every single day.

Most people have enough human problems. They are often hired to do a specific job and don’t necessarily think about these problems as something that could be solved. Many just see them as part of the actual process. So to even understand they are problems, require a certain kind of attention, most people simply don’t have. (I have later learned that this is called functional fixedness and is a cognitive bias. Which explain why people sometimes say “Why didn’t anyone think of this before?” — most people simply don’t think like that.)

Hidden problems often only reveal themselves over time.

Not all problems are even instantly recognizable. Instead they only reveal themselves over time or through years of experience. This also means that many of these problems require a certain age and experience to even notice let alone understand. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why the average age of a founder is 38 and with 16 years of working experience behind him."

http://000fff.org/the-problem-with-problems

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#66
post #33
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my thinking also... it came to me over a long time, and typically has a lot to do with why I switch jobs. At a certain point i give up struggling against the 'WTF' and just start going along with the flow, then one day i look at the stuff i am doing, realize working at the place is making me a worse professional, and move along... However I do want to note that in general these things do have real concrete ne…

There's a variety of things you can still do as a middle-tier or above engineer to try to change the situation. (Very junior engineers are advised to A: watch how the situation develops with those poor practices and learn and if ambitious B: find a mid-tier or above engineer to ally with for these matters. You lack the social capital on your own to do much.) In my experience, at least with my development style, writi…

Thanks for this. I have used somewhat similar approach and ended up writing bunch of testing tools for our app over a period. I can see its effectiveness as quite a few people in our team and outside started using them, or made their own copy and modified for their needs. Now I am better off as a developer but appreciation in term monetary compensation / promotion did not come through. However unlike others I do not have option to change jobs due to visa issues etc.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly a perfect example of WTF worthy behavior being treated as totally normal; that it's encoded that there's "leadership" and "not leadership" as binary job distinctions with distinct responsibilities. I've been in both types of cultures and, by far the healthier culture was the one in which "making the organization better" was treated as everyone's responsibility. I've seen very junior engineers drive qu…

> If you seriously believe that all (or most) companies disallow anyone not in leadership to improve things, I'd consider getting out of your current situation and seeing things again with clear eyes. I've been around a bunch, including the US Air Force, and I can confidently tell you that heavily hierarchical organizational culture is the norm, individuals contributors who want to have effects beyond their job scope…

That you chose to mention the UAF as an example suggests that your experiences are really on the far side of what is being suggested here. If there's any place where these kinds of things don't work, it's in government or the military.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#68
post #60

My personal hottake is that, as Einstein proved, everything really is relative. What may seem dysfunctional and WTF from your vantage point may be perfectly logical from someone elses. If you are going thru your work-life with the idea that social relationships and business practices are always going to follow the same strict rules as your software or hardware does, well good luck with that. Normal is as normal does.

Einstein proved nothing like this.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#69

> There’s the company with a reputation for having great engineering practices that had 2 9s of reliability last time I checked, for reasons that are entirely predictable from their engineering practices. This is the second thing in a row that’s basically anonymous because multiple companies find it to be normal. Multiple companies find practices that lead to 2 9s of reliability to be completely and totally normal. I…

Is the implication that 2 9s are really bad, mediocre, or some other negative judgment in this context? I'm familiar with a lot of places that have trouble with even 1 9 of reliability with lots of capital but terrible culture despite employing lots of operational controls and some best practices that have trouble with one 9, so even 2 9s sounds like a dream sometimes and the way that Dan Luu worded this article makes it hard for me to understand the different cultural failure modes that he's trying to express.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#70
post #27

This post's style and "quality" of writing is really aggravating. I felt like I was banging my head against the wall after reading so many run on sentences or paragraphs that start with the same contraction. Other times the writing is so poorly executed I cannot tell what the author is trying to convey. For example what is going on in this paragraph: "There’s the company with a reputation for having great engineering…

It's a little bit awkward. Still, I find it oddly fascinating that you're confused, because I can't figure out what's confusing. There is a company Dan Luu knows about. This company has a reputation for great engineering practices. This company had 2 9s of reliability when Dan last checked. The reason it has 2 9s of reliability is a predictable result of its engineering practices. Although this example is about a spe…

So, characteristic X is so common that it does reveal the identity of company Y. Yet the author is surprised that many companies think X is normal?
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