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How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

danluu.com

41–50 of 267 posts

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#41
> well, we have some tweaks that didn’t make it into the paper.

Every single time I've tried to implement a newish, reasonably complicated algorithm from a paper and contacted the authors when I've run into trouble, this is the reply I've gotten. How is it not normal? It's research after all, and if you've worked in research you should have a good idea how the paper mill works.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#43

Most of what the author is complaining about boils down to business needs being more important than the needs of the engineering team. To be blunt, they're paying you to do a job, not to make the organization better. That's what they pay the leadership for. You want to be part of the leadership, work your way through the ranks or start your own business. My life got much, much easier once I learned to stop straining…

No, I think Dan has a pretty good handle on what the respective needs of companies and their engineering teams are. I think a more accurate gloss is that people's personal self-interest and habits are more important (to them) than the needs of the company. When doctors don't wash their hands, it's not because "the company" needs to kill more patients. It's because they're in a hurry.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#44
post #37

This post seems so good and so self-evidently true that I'm surprised at the amount of pushback it's getting here. Not sure what else to say about it. Well, I'll say this- the "@flaky" thing is pretty mind-blowing. In my own company I have noticed many engineers have a disturbing level of comfort with deciding something is a "mystery". There are no mysteries in what we do. The test fails because something is fucked u…

I think it corresponds to a lot of normal practice - even if you don't use @flaky, if one build fails and you run it again and it passes, what do you do? It's very possible to build tests that will pass sometimes if the code is correct and fail always if the code is wrong (e.g. test where there are race conditions in mock initialization, test that asserts that rows come out of a database in the same order they were p…

> even if you don't use @flaky, if one build fails and you run it again and it passes, what do you do?

One's answer to this question is a look into one's soul, at least in terms of engineering. The question is exactly what do you do. In my opinion, good engineers find out why the first one failed and why the second one passed. Either could be a false result. Sometimes the tests failed because the build box ran out of hard drive space, that's a false result. Sometimes a test passes because its condition for passing is incorrect, that's a false result too.

Tests passing is not necessarily a good thing in itself. That is why we have the notion of "testing the test"- a green icon means nothing if it's a lie.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#45
post #10

I immediately thought of the "5 monkeys and a ladder" psychology study, in which the first monkey attempts to climb the ladder to get a banana and all of the monkeys are sprayed with water. Then one of the monkeys is replaced with a newcomer, who then tries to climb the ladder, but this time, the remaining original monkeys attack it. And so the replacing of the monkeys continues, until none of the monkeys knows what…

This appears related to learned helplessness except on a sociological basis rather than individual basis.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#46

Speaking of completely messaged up... I had to add max-width, margin, and font-size styles before I could even attempt to read that page. For all that markup, there sure wasn't any attention payed to readability.

I use this Chrome extension: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/read-mode/nagcaaho...

There are others like it if you don't like this formatting.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#47

Most of what the author is complaining about boils down to business needs being more important than the needs of the engineering team. To be blunt, they're paying you to do a job, not to make the organization better. That's what they pay the leadership for. You want to be part of the leadership, work your way through the ranks or start your own business. My life got much, much easier once I learned to stop straining…

This is exactly a perfect example of WTF worthy behavior being treated as totally normal; that it's encoded that there's "leadership" and "not leadership" as binary job distinctions with distinct responsibilities.

I've been in both types of cultures and, by far the healthier culture was the one in which "making the organization better" was treated as everyone's responsibility. I've seen very junior engineers drive quite significant culture changes, simply by leading by example. They did it, not by whining or complaining, but by taking baby steps of trying out small experiments with their immediate team and then broadcasting their success to incrementally greater circles within the company until it became the new normal.

If you seriously believe that all (or most) companies disallow anyone not in leadership to improve things, I'd consider getting out of your current situation and seeing things again with clear eyes.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#48

Most of what the author is complaining about boils down to business needs being more important than the needs of the engineering team. To be blunt, they're paying you to do a job, not to make the organization better. That's what they pay the leadership for. You want to be part of the leadership, work your way through the ranks or start your own business. My life got much, much easier once I learned to stop straining…

Companies have business needs to not go down and to not lose customer data, both of which are very real consequences of poor engineering practice.

Managers are also acclimated to the business's practices and may find others absurd. The essay is suggesting that hey would be better managers were they to listen to the WTFs from newcomers.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#49
post #27

This post's style and "quality" of writing is really aggravating. I felt like I was banging my head against the wall after reading so many run on sentences or paragraphs that start with the same contraction. Other times the writing is so poorly executed I cannot tell what the author is trying to convey. For example what is going on in this paragraph: "There’s the company with a reputation for having great engineering…

It's a little bit awkward. Still, I find it oddly fascinating that you're confused, because I can't figure out what's confusing. There is a company Dan Luu knows about. This company has a reputation for great engineering practices. This company had 2 9s of reliability when Dan last checked. The reason it has 2 9s of reliability is a predictable result of its engineering practices. Although this example is about a spe…

The unspoken implication here is that 99% reliability is considered bad. This may not be clear if coming from a different field where 99% sounds pretty good.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#50

Most of what the author is complaining about boils down to business needs being more important than the needs of the engineering team. To be blunt, they're paying you to do a job, not to make the organization better. That's what they pay the leadership for. You want to be part of the leadership, work your way through the ranks or start your own business. My life got much, much easier once I learned to stop straining…

> To be blunt, they're paying you to do a job, not to make the organization better.

Ultimately what "they're paying you" for is not so specific. Generally, leadership doesn't have the skills to know there is a problem. Even in the cases where the leadership is technically exceptional, there is no way they can consider the myriad technical decisions and how they affect the future of the business.

Maybe leadership still doesn't care. If technical issues stunt the growth of the company or cause it to go under, the response could be "Meh, we had a good run." In that case, I, as an individual contributor, want to know that's the attitude up front. This lets me know to move on before everything hits the fan instead of be one of thousands laid off at the same time.

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