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How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

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Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that in my example the problem is totally random - it is my example after all :). In the US it's probably less so. Institutional issues one can deal with, but what to do about "personal biases of the individuals involved (conscious or subconscious)"? We can try to minimize it, but one has to accept that it'll hit diminishing returns after some time. But my point was about 'rrmm wrote - that "Getting ever…

> We can try to minimize it, but one has to accept that it'll hit diminishing returns after some time. That's true for everything, but let's not assume that we're at the point of diminished returns already.

Of course. We most likely aren't. But it's important to notice when you pass it (and expect a good solution to pass it at some point in the first place) - something society as a whole generally hasn't internalized yet.

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#62
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am right up there with thinking cops significantly (and often) overstep their bounds... Really? Are you sure this isn't just because the bad ones are reported often and hardly any good ones? I mean, there are a LOT of officers in the U.S. Surely they aren't all overstepping. One thing to remember about officers; they see the worst of US day in and day out, every single day. I'm sure it colors one's view of the wo…

I'm an American expat living in the UK, so I am interested in judging things on comparative rather than absolute terms. In the UK, the police are on track to have killed 3 people in 2015[1]. In the US, the police are on track to have killed 1,200 people[2]. Adjusted for population, the US has a police homicide rate that is 79 times higher than in the UK. In some places, police violence is now the no. 1 form of homici…

>> Actual homicide is just the tip of the iceberg, of course, but if this doesn't qualify as "significantly and often" then I'm not sure what does.

Mainly because police departments do not keep these kinds of statistics, so the data is horribly incomplete. And as anybody knows, you can massage the data to show anything you want when you don't have the complete picture:

Officials with the Justice Department keep no comprehensive database or record of police shootings, instead allowing the nation’s more than 17,000 law enforcement agencies to self-report officer-involved shootings as part of the FBI’s annual data on “justifiable homicides” by law enforcement.

That number – which only includes self-reported information from about 750 law enforcement agencies – hovers around 400 “justifiable homicides” by police officers each year. The DOJ’s Bureau of Justice Statistics also tracks “arrest-related deaths.” But the department stopped releasing those numbers after 2009, because, like the FBI data, they were widely regarded as unreliable.

source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/09/0...

The other problem with your data is that there is no firm evidence how each of these scenario's played out. Did the person being shot pull a firearm? What about brandishing a weapon or charging the officer, or attempting to assault the officer? We don't know because this kind of evidence is never taken into account. All people see is a cop who killed a citizen, nobody knows the exact circumstances around every single one of these instances - which makes ALL the data that much more suspect.

So yeah, when you look at the raw numbers, they look bad, but when you add in the circumstances by which these played out, you'd probably find out a lot of these were justified - which is why cops tend to get a lot of leeway in these kinds of scenarios, and are rarely charged.

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#63
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to believe this but now I'm more careful - there are several biases that rear their ugly heads in problems like these. On the one hand, what GP alluded to is that bad interactions will be overrepresented in any kind of police reporting app that doesn't force you to rate every interaction you were in. On the other hand, you have the usual publication/media bias and availability heuristic working against us. Say…

the problem is minor and mostly random in nature 1 defect in 10,000 is not arbitrarily 'good'. Picture a bridge that randomly drops 1 in every 50,000 cars. Further, cops are not a single entity if state and local cops have different issues and different training then that might be a way to improve the system. But, we don't collect statistics nationally. So, how do we improve?

> 1 defect in 10,000 is not arbitrarily 'good'

No, I'd argue it's pretty awful. The average person probably interacts with the police ~10 times during their life. If 1 in 10 000 cop interactions ended up with you getting killed, police brutality would be in the top 10 causes of death in the US (on par with suicide).

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#64
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to believe this but now I'm more careful - there are several biases that rear their ugly heads in problems like these. On the one hand, what GP alluded to is that bad interactions will be overrepresented in any kind of police reporting app that doesn't force you to rate every interaction you were in. On the other hand, you have the usual publication/media bias and availability heuristic working against us. Say…

> that still gives a steady stream of police brutality cases to run on nation-wide news, day after day. US police brutality is so routine that it mostly goes un-reported, or gets minor attention on very local news media. That's changing now. Part of the problem is that US police don't even count how many people they shoot and kill. I'd argue that the myth of "Vaccines causing autism" was not just manufactured by medi…

> I'd argue that the myth of "Vaccines causing autism" was not just manufactured by media, it was manufactured by a crook doctor who i) had developed his own single dose measles vaccine and needed people to stop using MMR and ii) was paid by lawyers to find a link to autism.

Of course most of the time media sources don't invent stuff like this - but tell me, without the widespread publicity, would anyone even hear about this guy?

Now one can say that it's only fringe outlets that go anti-vaxx nowadays. But mainstream sources do exactly the same type of reporting - omitting or not doing the math, blowing things out of proportion by literal orders of magnitude, etc. - when it comes to GMOs, or e-cigs, or immigrants, or terrorists, etc. The feedback loop between readers and publishers can turn just about absolutely anything into a nation-wide scandal.

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#65
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American expat living in the UK, so I am interested in judging things on comparative rather than absolute terms. In the UK, the police are on track to have killed 3 people in 2015[1]. In the US, the police are on track to have killed 1,200 people[2]. Adjusted for population, the US has a police homicide rate that is 79 times higher than in the UK. In some places, police violence is now the no. 1 form of homici…

Don't you think you should also include crime rate in this analysis? And split it by areas. I don't think anyone would find if suspicious that cops kill more people in crime-infested poor neighborhood with constant gang violence than in a high-middle class London suburb.

No. The prevalence of crime should not in itself be an excuse for the police to use lethal force.

Or maybe you meant to argue that crime rate is an indicator for general lawlessness of the population, in which case crime rate and police violence are two sides of the same coin?

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#66
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American expat living in the UK, so I am interested in judging things on comparative rather than absolute terms. In the UK, the police are on track to have killed 3 people in 2015[1]. In the US, the police are on track to have killed 1,200 people[2]. Adjusted for population, the US has a police homicide rate that is 79 times higher than in the UK. In some places, police violence is now the no. 1 form of homici…

>> Actual homicide is just the tip of the iceberg, of course, but if this doesn't qualify as "significantly and often" then I'm not sure what does. Mainly because police departments do not keep these kinds of statistics, so the data is horribly incomplete. And as anybody knows, you can massage the data to show anything you want when you don't have the complete picture: Officials with the Justice Department keep no co…

As I understand it (I don't know much about guns) a weapon is a measure of last resort. The officer should only discharge the weapon if someone is about to die and all other efforts have failed. And when they discharge their weapon they must shot for "centre mass" - shoot to wound is a myth.

So if that's true why isn't information gathered about every single round of ammunition that's fired? Because every time that trigger is pulled is a time when someone (the officer, a member of the public) is at risk of death, and pulling the trigger carries a very real risk of killing the alleged perpetrator. (Or innocent bystanders).

It's baffling to me that statistics like these are not kept.

Maybe this would be too high a burden. But at least they should keep numbers on how many people they kill, and what the precise situation was around that death.

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#67
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that still gives a steady stream of police brutality cases to run on nation-wide news, day after day. US police brutality is so routine that it mostly goes un-reported, or gets minor attention on very local news media. That's changing now. Part of the problem is that US police don't even count how many people they shoot and kill. I'd argue that the myth of "Vaccines causing autism" was not just manufactured by medi…

> I'd argue that the myth of "Vaccines causing autism" was not just manufactured by media, it was manufactured by a crook doctor who i) had developed his own single dose measles vaccine and needed people to stop using MMR and ii) was paid by lawyers to find a link to autism. Of course most of the time media sources don't invent stuff like this - but tell me, without the widespread publicity, would anyone even hear ab…

> Of course most of the time media sources don't invent stuff like this - but tell me, without the widespread publicity, would anyone even hear about this guy?

So that's a different claim.

When he first appeared he was credible - he got published in a peer reviewed respectable journal after all, and he was actively trying to con people.

Once his paper had been debunked, well, yes you're right there. There's no excuse to keep pushing his theory once we know he's falsified his data, taken samples illegally from people without their permission, etc.

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#68
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice. Where'd you get the numbers?

They are made-up example numbers to show that even if something is not the "general case" (e.g. majority), it can still be a huge problem if it's big enough, especially if it's bigger than the norm in other "civilized" countries. Note that you didn't provide any numbers for "most cops don't overstep their bounds" either. If we consider "killing citizens" as "overstepping their bounds" (and I'd say is the most overste…

As with many other government enterprises, policing has become an elaborate ritual, intended to bless the participants with rewards of tax dollars.

If it were an ordinary business, policing would be in a deep contraction, due to the steady drop in violent crime rates in the last two decades. Fewer people would have jobs as cops, prosecutors, public defenders, judges, bailiffs, and prison guards.

Instead of either laying off unneeded personnel, stopping new hires to let the numbers drop by attrition, merging municipal police departments or turning them into sheriff subsidiaries, or giving police employees the same benefits and pension plan cuts as all other municipal workers, municipalities just send their superfluous officers out to drum up more revenue.

That started out as selective enforcement. Certain crimes, if prosecuted vigorously, have enough statutory fines attached to make them actually profitable. Say hello to speeding and parking tickets. Certain towns turned themselves into speed traps to tax those passing through too quickly. More.

Then governments started expanding their malum prohibitum crimes. Crimes that didn't have fines attached got minimum sentences, and the courts and prisons became machines to turn tax money into guaranteed jobs in criminal justice. After all, you can't just let those violent criminals go. You would never get reelected if you did that. More!

Now, the cops just take your stuff on a civil forfeiture claim or as "evidence", and never return it (cash, vehicles), or they throw it to the ground and/or stomp on it (recording devices). Now, the courts tack on a bunch of extra fees for anyone issued a civil citation. Now, the prisons are run by for-profit corporations, with minimum occupancy agreements with the government authorities. If they want more, what could happen next?

I would think that cities like Chicago would be itching to reduce their future unsustainable pension obligations by investigating every complaint vigorously, and firing the highest-paid police officers for cause if there is even a whiff of official misconduct. Wouldn't that be better than going bankrupt?

It might, if there were even one uncorrupted public official left in that town able to do the job.

It's long past time for the law-and-order budgets to be brought back under control. The only places in the U.S. that should be hiring more cops are the oil and gas boom towns.

But it isn't about the rational course of action. It's all about the money that can't stop flowing through the system that is now too big to fail.

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#69
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American expat living in the UK, so I am interested in judging things on comparative rather than absolute terms. In the UK, the police are on track to have killed 3 people in 2015[1]. In the US, the police are on track to have killed 1,200 people[2]. Adjusted for population, the US has a police homicide rate that is 79 times higher than in the UK. In some places, police violence is now the no. 1 form of homici…

Nice statistics. Just because an officer kills, doesn't mean it was a crime and it doesn't mean the officer overstepped his bounds.

So what, you're postulating that US citizens justly deserve to be killed by police 79 time more than their British counterparts? I mean the police is only supposed to kill to protect their, or a bystander's, life. We know from the few times that police-caused deaths have been caught on video in the US that this is often not at all the case. The guy shot down as he walks down the middle of the road. The guy who's neck gets broken in a police van, the young kid shot down in a park because he's playing with a toy gun. The guy that is choked to death because he's selling loose cigarettes in the street.

Those are all recent cases that I am personally aware of, as a non-US citizen, living in Europe. I'm sure there have been plenty of others.

So yes, not all police killings in the US are undeserved, but there sure are plenty that are, and that is what those statistics are showing.

Re: How three teenagers invented an app to police the cops

#70
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There shouldn't be that many "bad ones" to report, period. You're absolutely right! But that's NOT what I was arguing against. >They also represent some of what is worst about the US, day in and day out, every single day. NO THEY DON'T! Only a few!!! That's my POINT.

OK, here's a food for thought: only in the US you can get shot for getting out of your car when a traffic cop stops you.

And that proves what? That I'm wrong? Hardly.
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