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The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

theintercept.com

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Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#41

Post by asdfzxc »

golergka wrote: post #35
braythwayt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the author seriously suggesting to view deliberate terror attacks against civilians the same as military strikes (drones or planes — I don't see a difference) performed against enemy combatants, by people who are trying to minimize civilian casualties as far as they can? Why not? Let’s that the countries of Xanadu (“X”) and Yalü (“Y”) are at war with each other. Isn’t it meaningful to compare the number of X and…

> If X says “We’re careful to minimize killing Y’s civilians,” shouldn’t we judge X by how successful it is in minimizing those casualties? Or should we say, “Oh, well, X is trying their best, so no need to keep count or compare the counts.” Compare what to what? How do you find out how many civilians would have been killed or lived in an alternate version of history? US killed more japanese civilians than Japan kill…

If you go by the spirit of the argument, you should compare total civilian deaths caused by a side rather than reciprocal deaths. Japan killed way way more civilians in general than the USA, during world war 2.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#42

Post by soared »

rdancer wrote: post #28
avz wrote: post #22

The article seems to imply there is real malice and deliberate intent to deceive the public in the media coverage of civilian victims of Western attacks. This is one explanation, but I don't see conclusive evidence of this in the article. More probable explanation is that viewing public's sympathy suffers from inherent biases and the media simply follows those biases. It's a well-known fact that media prefers headlin…

If it were so, if the public were aware of the reality at least in broad strokes, and if the media simply just didn't report on things everybody knew were going on... how would you explain the outcry after the Bataclan shooting that "they attacked us", and "now we're at war" -- while that same morning, just as every morning in the preceding month, French Mirages rained death on Syria? How would you explain the ludicr…

Because the middle east is not "we" while France and the rest of Europe most definitely is "us." And war is going on in Syria, so a death that occurs in the homeland isn't a casualty of war, because the war isn't occurring here. Its over there. Deaths here are caused by terrorism, deaths there are caused by war.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#43

Post by tdyen »

avz wrote: post #22

The article seems to imply there is real malice and deliberate intent to deceive the public in the media coverage of civilian victims of Western attacks. This is one explanation, but I don't see conclusive evidence of this in the article. More probable explanation is that viewing public's sympathy suffers from inherent biases and the media simply follows those biases. It's a well-known fact that media prefers headlin…

But as a reporter or editor you could choose to highlight the deaths of innocents such as children to raise moral outrage, generate click bait etc and yet they don't. There often is an implicit bias in the reporters and editors themselves. Whether malicious, that's another question.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#44

Post by rdancer »

rlpb wrote: post #31
braythwayt wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the author seriously suggesting to view deliberate terror attacks against civilians the same as military strikes (drones or planes — I don't see a difference) performed against enemy combatants, by people who are trying to minimize civilian casualties as far as they can? Why not? Let’s that the countries of Xanadu (“X”) and Yalü (“Y”) are at war with each other. Isn’t it meaningful to compare the number of X and…

Your argument suggests that only X are responsible for Y's civilian deaths. But given that X and Y are at war with each other, if Y sets up military operations in the middle of Y's civilians ("human shields") whereas X keeps its civilians and military apart, then I don't think it's fair to say that X are performing worse (less ethically, or whatever) if more of Y's civilians die in the conflict than X's civilians. >…

Ironically, much of the personnel involved in the U.S. drone program lives and works stateside, among the civilian population.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#45

Post by omonra »

rdancer wrote: post #44
rlpb wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument suggests that only X are responsible for Y's civilian deaths. But given that X and Y are at war with each other, if Y sets up military operations in the middle of Y's civilians ("human shields") whereas X keeps its civilians and military apart, then I don't think it's fair to say that X are performing worse (less ethically, or whatever) if more of Y's civilians die in the conflict than X's civilians. >…

Ironically, much of the personnel involved in the U.S. drone program lives and works stateside, among the civilian population.

Yet no muslim terrorist has accidentally killed innocent civilians when targeting drone operators, have they? They rather simply always target innocent civilians.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#46

Post by lolc »

avz wrote: post #22

The article seems to imply there is real malice and deliberate intent to deceive the public in the media coverage of civilian victims of Western attacks. This is one explanation, but I don't see conclusive evidence of this in the article. More probable explanation is that viewing public's sympathy suffers from inherent biases and the media simply follows those biases. It's a well-known fact that media prefers headlin…

How convenient! Our biases comfort our ignorance.

And yes there is malice. If you seek to hide civilian casualties your excuse cannot be the disinterest of the deceived. The lies which hide drone terror by framing it as a war, these lies cause great human suffering by prolonging the inexcusable. How could the assumption of "all adult males killed must have been guilty" not be evidence of deception?

Even if we were so innocent of the situation to assume politicians are lying to protect us, they would still be lying. I don't know your ethics but mine do not encompass knowingly spreading lies. Especially when it's done to protect one's position. A position of great power, I must add.

Journalists have the means to uncover these lies. When they choose to spread them instead, because this is the easier option, they become complicit. It may not be malice in the sense of "evil for the sake of it" but I wouldn't set the bar down there.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#47

Post by lolc »

omonra wrote: post #45
rdancer wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, much of the personnel involved in the U.S. drone program lives and works stateside, among the civilian population.

Yet no muslim terrorist has accidentally killed innocent civilians when targeting drone operators, have they? They rather simply always target innocent civilians.

Many definitions of terrorism require targeting civilians. So your statements are trivially true. There have been attacks on people in uniform by people identifying as Muslims. These were labeled as terrorist attacks too, so your second statement is not true if you follow the broader definition.

One wrong does not justify another, unless of course you decide to follow their logic.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#48

Post by omonra »

lolc wrote: post #47
omonra wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet no muslim terrorist has accidentally killed innocent civilians when targeting drone operators, have they? They rather simply always target innocent civilians.

Many definitions of terrorism require targeting civilians. So your statements are trivially true. There have been attacks on people in uniform by people identifying as Muslims. These were labeled as terrorist attacks too, so your second statement is not true if you follow the broader definition. One wrong does not justify another, unless of course you decide to follow their logic.

We were talking about drone operators as being equivalent targets to whoever Americans blow up with drone (with concomitant collateral damage). I pointed out that no muslim terrorists have killed people while attempting to kill drone operators (or other specifically targeted military personnel).

And why jump through verbal hoops with 'people identifying as Muslims'. Don't we have a word for that - 'muslims'? Is there any chance of someone not being sure if you are talking about people or goats, thus the need for further clarification?

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#49

Post by SixSigma »

omonra wrote: post #48
lolc wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many definitions of terrorism require targeting civilians. So your statements are trivially true. There have been attacks on people in uniform by people identifying as Muslims. These were labeled as terrorist attacks too, so your second statement is not true if you follow the broader definition. One wrong does not justify another, unless of course you decide to follow their logic.

We were talking about drone operators as being equivalent targets to whoever Americans blow up with drone (with concomitant collateral damage). I pointed out that no muslim terrorists have killed people while attempting to kill drone operators (or other specifically targeted military personnel). And why jump through verbal hoops with 'people identifying as Muslims'. Don't we have a word for that - 'muslims'? Is there…

You should walk round tumblr and see all the otherkin people "identify" as. We don't count any of them as wolves or mermaids.

Re: The Key War on Terror Propaganda Tool: Only Western Victims Are Acknowledged

#50

Post by omonra »

SixSigma wrote: post #49
omonra wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were talking about drone operators as being equivalent targets to whoever Americans blow up with drone (with concomitant collateral damage). I pointed out that no muslim terrorists have killed people while attempting to kill drone operators (or other specifically targeted military personnel). And why jump through verbal hoops with 'people identifying as Muslims'. Don't we have a word for that - 'muslims'? Is there…

You should walk round tumblr and see all the otherkin people "identify" as. We don't count any of them as wolves or mermaids.

But that's because we don't consider it sufficient for someone to identify as a woolf or mermaid to be one. Whereas if someone identifies as a Christian/Jew/Buddhist or whatever - that's sufficient reason for everybody to accept that.
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