In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears • Hacker News Board

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#41

Post by mahyarm » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 8:21 PM UTC

JDiculous wrote: post #18

Meanwhile in NYC, paying by anything other than cash generally requires a $10-15 minimum. I find it incredibly inefficient and am sick of having to hold cash and constantly go to ATMs. I understand that the reason these card minimums are in place is because the card companies charge a non-trivial amount that wipes out the store's margins at low prices. How can we solve this?

In credit cards, certain low risk retailers get very discounted rates, such as grocers. In Australia, I think it's a flat rate for grocers to accept a card. I wouldn't be surprised if it's similarly lower in Sweden.

Also the cost of things are higher in Sweden for everything, so I wouldn't be surprised if that is rolled into the cost of things and everyone pays the credit card tax.

Also for large businesses, handling cash has a cost too & card fees are negotiated for lower rates, so accepting cards isn't as big of a deal for them.

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#42

Post by scrollaway » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 8:21 PM UTC

nissehulth wrote: post #29

PeterisP wrote: post #10

I don't know how it's for native swedes, but last couple times I was visiting there (and that was a few years ago) I didn't even bother to exchange currency or have any swedish kronor in my wallet. You just can do everything without cash.

I live in Stockholm, Sweden, I don't think I've had cash in my wallet at any point this year. Parking? Paid with an app (that charge my credit card). Paying a friend or my kids for something? Done via the Swift app (instant bank to bank account transfer). Buying veggies at the outdoor market? That guy will accept credit cards via a regular terminal or a phone with something like iZettle. Or perhaps even accept a Swif…

You don't have to buy drugs to find cash-only businesses in Stockholm. Maids are cash only and so are some removal companies.

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#43

Post by gustavcedersjo » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 8:28 PM UTC

For a couple of years, there was a company in Lund, Sweden that offered biometric payments. It was very convenient. Unfortunately, they quit, partly because of high transaction costs of the banks.

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#44

Post by collyw » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 8:31 PM UTC

Numberwang wrote: post #2

This seems to pop up in different forms on HN every now and then and then the same arguments all take place in the comments so allow me to start. As a Swede I would not want to have it any other way, and any time I'm abroad I miss the simplicity. There are privacy issues and cost issues sure, but this is a general problem in lots of ways for most nations.

I can understand that from most people, buts to me its a bit like the "if you have nothing to hide argument" - it woks for the majority, but there are way too many edge cases to consider. Say for example you wanted to buy some weed - something that a reasonable proportion of normal and reasonable people do - but for political reasons is illegal. Do you really need that being trackable?

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#45

Post by scrollaway » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 8:31 PM UTC

I lived in Sweden (Stockholm) for a year. Here's what bothered me about the idea of "cash-free":

1. Cards are controlled by businesses that do not have the customers' interests at heart. What's more, it is not easy to become a card payment provider.

2. Current government may be trustable, but nobody knows what happens with the next one. The government has various forms of power over card payments which they don't have with cash. They can trace it, they can block it, they can know every aspects of your life. And it's not just your government, it's other nations' as well in some cases.

So putting all your money in one basket here is putting all your purchasing power and all your privacy in the hands of businesses that cannot be competed with and institutions that are easily corrupted.

Electronic payments are the future, there's no working around that. But are we going to find solutions to the privacy issues in time?

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#46

Post by Numberwang » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 8:52 PM UTC

maaku wrote: post #21

Numberwang wrote: post #2

This seems to pop up in different forms on HN every now and then and then the same arguments all take place in the comments so allow me to start. As a Swede I would not want to have it any other way, and any time I'm abroad I miss the simplicity. There are privacy issues and cost issues sure, but this is a general problem in lots of ways for most nations.

Do you trust your government?

I very much trust the Swedish government based on past decisions, and a general knowledge of the Swedish character (that goes beyond cultural ebbs and flows). Also, trust is easier in a small country with a good track record.

And I trust my fellow Swedes to keep electing trustworthy governments in the future.

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#47

Post by fauigerzigerk » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 10:05 PM UTC

dude01 wrote: post #12

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a solvable problem though. For instance, prepaid cards or apps based on a similar principle should fix this.

Ok, but how do you buy the prepaid card? Through a track able electronic purchase I'd guess.

The purchase of the prepaid card can be tracked just as getting cash from a cash machine can be tracked. But that's where the track ends. If the prepaid card is anonymous, it can be passed on to someone else as payment for instance.

Whether we have anonymous electronic payments is not a technology issue. It's a political question. The danger is that governments could use the demise of cash to ban anonymous payments altogether. I'm just saying that the loss of anonymity is not an automatic consequence of electronic payments.

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#48

Post by fauigerzigerk » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 10:35 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #13

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems like a solvable problem though. For instance, prepaid cards or apps based on a similar principle should fix this.

By KYC laws prepaid CCs have to be registered with your name and address.

But that is a political decision, not a necessary feature of electronic payments. If cash really does go away at some point, political pressure might grow to make smallish anonymous purchases possible by relaxing that sort of regulation.

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#49

Post by mschuster91 » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 11:15 PM UTC

ersii wrote: post #27

mschuster91 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By KYC laws prepaid CCs have to be registered with your name and address.

What jurisdiction are you talking about? There are prepaid Internet enabled Visa/Mastercards available at 7-Eleven/Pressbyrån in Sweden from the supplier "Spendon" (www.spendon.se). No questions asked when purchasing them. It's sold as a "gift card" though.

Germany. Prepaid Mastercards require the shop owner to photocopy your ID card.

Re: In Sweden, a Cash-Free Future Nears

#50

Post by dalke » Sun, Dec 27, 2015, 1:04 AM UTC

biafra wrote: post #26

JDiculous wrote: post #18

Meanwhile in NYC, paying by anything other than cash generally requires a $10-15 minimum. I find it incredibly inefficient and am sick of having to hold cash and constantly go to ATMs. I understand that the reason these card minimums are in place is because the card companies charge a non-trivial amount that wipes out the store's margins at low prices. How can we solve this?

Is 3% really wiping out the margin? Square and SumUp charge less than 3% for credit card payments. At least in Germany that led to smaller minimum amounts. They are now at about 1€.

US grocery stores have a margin of roughly 2-3%.