Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#231

Post by thecrazyone » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 4:47 PM UTC

iofj wrote: post #201

shrikrishna wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get one thing straight. Free Basics is not about "bringing up" the poor. And among the "well off" are those who were poor once and have used knowledge from the internet to be wise enough to realize what is going on. Free Basics, if allowed to remain, will become a gatekeeper to the internet and will essentially become a barrier to entry to other services

Minus: might become a barrier to entry to other services Plus: provides "some" internet for a billion people ... including wikipedia and various info apps. Includes photo sharing, chat, ... Which of these is more important ? That's the big question being discussed here. And of course the people discussing how this might stand in the way of their future profits feel absolutely no need to provide an alternative ...

>Plus: provides "some" internet for a billion people ... including wikipedia and various info apps. Includes photo sharing, chat, ...

Chat, fb, etc is free for now, because Facebook "allows" it to be free. Once everyone is on free basics, they can do a U-turn and say only Facebook messenger, Facebook website, Facebook * is free. What are you going to do then?

What prevents them from doing this?

Letting FB or any company be a gatekeeper to net is wrong on so many levels. There are so many devious things they can do and we as people or other companies will be totally helpless.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#232

Post by wildmusings » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:15 PM UTC

firasd wrote: post #206

wildmusings wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hundreds of millions of people in India don't even have access to electricity, let alone internet. The Indian government is extremely corrupt and over-regulating. They have failed to bring modernity to a billion people. That's the context here. From what I can tell, Free Basics is a market solution that will allow a bunch of self-interested parties to bring connectivity to people who would probably never get it other…

What makes you think Free Basics is doing anything about electricity or connectivity? It is just zero-rating for Facebook & partner apps, riding on top of infrastructure and services built by existing telecom networks in the country with the "extremely corrupt" and "failed" government.

Why the scare quotes around "extremely corrupt"? Do you really think otherwise? India is notorious for pervasive total corruption from top to bottom.

Facebook is not doing anything about electricity; I mention that statistic to demonstrate how modern infrastructure has failed to reach a huge portion of Indians. Facebook has come up with a business model that can reach people that don't have the ability to pay out of pocket for ANY connectivity. By making it profitable for telecoms to serve these people, Free Basics would encourage that infrastructure to expand to the one billion people it hasn't reached.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#233

Post by wildmusings » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:17 PM UTC

gcb0 wrote: post #209

wildmusings wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solutions that work when everyone is following their self-interest are better than solutions that require altruism. The most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the world is capitalism.

that usually comes to bite you later. with only one tv channel/radio station/available free web site to billions of poor, bad politicians can focus much easier on praying them. this worked very well when their only entertainment was religion cults. everything has a consequence that will indirectly affect your ivory tower.

Your saying I'm in the ivory tower? Bad politicians have already kept a billion Indians out of modernity. Maybe they should give Free Basics a chance before they shut it down to protect their own power, or some ivory tower view that no internet connection is better than a very limited connection that nonetheless connects you with people across the world.

If there's an alternative way to expand connectivity, then why doesn't it exist now, or why doesn't someone set it up in competition to Free Basics? No one will use Free Basics if they can get real internet at an affordable price.

And your characterization of "one station" is wholly inaccurate. Even if the service included only Facebook (which it doesn't, as anyone can apply to have their web service included in the system), that's millions of profiles and pages with differing opinions, competing products, etc.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#234

Post by rdlecler1 » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:23 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #146

Crito wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they truly had altruistic intentions, they damn well could be.

Solutions that work when everyone is following their self-interest are better than solutions that require altruism. The most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the world is capitalism.

There are a lot of assumptions and learning from 200 years of capitalism baked into that remark. The rampant 'success' of capitalism was also a factor leading to communism. Like any good self regulating system it needs mechanisms in place to control it's own greed.

Also, altruism is perfectly at home with modern evolutionary theory because it assumes a more enlightened, rather than simple minded, understanding of altruism.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#235

Post by usrusr » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:36 PM UTC

petke wrote: post #70

erbdex wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a screenshot of what's the permanent top-notification if you're an Indian and on Facebook- http://imgur.com/uykRY8G

I agree Facebook is doing this for their own greedy reasons, but they make one very good point: "Banning free basics on the basis of net neutrality [...] means 1 billion people cant afford to access any services." It isn't a choice between having facebook, or having the full internet. Its a choice between having facebook, or having no internet at all. Surely no internet at all, is the worst option. Nobody else is goi…

I'm surprised Facebook is actually wanting this to happen. Being the poor man's internet seems to me like a sure way to kill a brand, quite a gamble!

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#236

Post by eevilspock » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 6:15 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #146

Crito wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they truly had altruistic intentions, they damn well could be.

Solutions that work when everyone is following their self-interest are better than solutions that require altruism. The most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the world is capitalism.

Really? It was capitalism, but not The Enlightenment, mathematics and science, or the development of egalitarian rule of law, or democracy?

Feudalism may have lifted more humans out of poverty than any other system in the history of the world at the time. It's a good thing we didn't decide to stop there. What would you have written at the time?

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#237

Post by eevilspock » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 6:27 PM UTC

rdlecler1 wrote: post #234

wildmusings wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solutions that work when everyone is following their self-interest are better than solutions that require altruism. The most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the world is capitalism.

There are a lot of assumptions and learning from 200 years of capitalism baked into that remark. The rampant 'success' of capitalism was also a factor leading to communism. Like any good self regulating system it needs mechanisms in place to control it's own greed. Also, altruism is perfectly at home with modern evolutionary theory because it assumes a more enlightened, rather than simple minded, understanding of alt…

> altruism is perfectly at home with modern evolutionary theory

To add to your point, which I'm sure is in reference to macro-level phenomenon such as the interdependence of species, symbiosis, ecosystem complexity and the like, it's important to note that multi-cellular organisms are the epitome of individuals (cells) working for the greater good rather than local self-interest. Eons ago single cells started working together and specializing. White blood cells, neural cells and muscle cells don't compete against each other, much less is there white blood cell on white blood cell competition. When cells behavior breaks from the greater good, we call it cancer.

A perfect example of pure self interest is the virus.

Interesting that many people do consider capitalism akin to cancer, or that it behaves virally.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#238

Post by thetruthseeker1 » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 6:45 PM UTC

quadrangle wrote: post #72

petke wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree Facebook is doing this for their own greedy reasons, but they make one very good point: "Banning free basics on the basis of net neutrality [...] means 1 billion people cant afford to access any services." It isn't a choice between having facebook, or having the full internet. Its a choice between having facebook, or having no internet at all. Surely no internet at all, is the worst option. Nobody else is goi…

Nonsense. Facebook is rich enough and powerful enough to MAKE the choice be full-internet or nothing. They and other powerful entities can provide full internet. It is THEIR fault that the choice is FaceBook or nothing because they want that to be the choice. FaceBook is not some savior here. The ramifications of pushing everyone to FB are also devastating because they would force everyone to get locked in to using F…

I think your argument makes no sense. I am all for helping people etc, but just because Facebook is rich by your definition, the poor people are not entitled to its money. FB will do what is needed to promote its self interest and in that process some (supposedly poor) people get some amount of free internet, its not such an evil thing, though, if it turns to be an evil thing in the long run, it could be regulated in the future. I see arguments about net neutraility though, but I dont understand/see the solution, if FB cancels this, there is no free wikipedia to the masses (which is horrible).

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#239

Post by thetruthseeker1 » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 6:56 PM UTC

jholman wrote: post #204

discardorama wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should really think before spouting off, and you should honestly admit if you're biased in this instance. I've followed India's cellular revolution with interest, seeing (as I mentioned earlier) I grew up when India had almost no phones. My dad, due to his work, always had a phone; and I, being the youngest, was the errand-boy, running to distant houses to tell people that there was a phone call for them, and tha…

> You should really think before spouting off, and you should honestly admit if you're biased in this instance. The ivory tower comment which you complained about up-thread read to me as "this is a possible cognitive mistake we might make, let us avoid it" (note that it used the word "us"). On the other hand, there is no charitable reading of the first line of your comment. It's just nasty, much nastier than the even…

I agree with jholman and Sreemani here. I dont see the pharma analogy, because rest of the 20% of the internet users are not forced to pay for something (Even though there may or may not be questions about anti-competitiveness, but that is not what we are arguing here...its net neutrality). If they dont like Reliance agreement with FB, they can switch carriers.

In the US an analogy that I can think of is obamacare, where everybody was forced to pay a certain amount of money as TAX so that the whole country is insured.... I dont see the same argument here.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#240

Post by kartan » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 7:26 PM UTC

throwawaykf05 wrote: post #168

quadrangle wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. Facebook is rich enough and powerful enough to MAKE the choice be full-internet or nothing. They and other powerful entities can provide full internet. It is THEIR fault that the choice is FaceBook or nothing because they want that to be the choice. FaceBook is not some savior here. The ramifications of pushing everyone to FB are also devastating because they would force everyone to get locked in to using F…

What if I claim you are rich enough to donate to charities of not only your choice, but my choice as well. Will you donate to arbitrary charities that arbitrary people ask you to? Just because you have money does not mean we get to tell you what to do with it. >Even a delay in getting people online is better for the people's interests than locking them into a shitty closed system for the long-term. That's because you…

> What if I claim you are rich enough to donate to charities of not only your choice, but my choice as well.

High inequality and mega-rich charity are a related issue. Rich people is not contributing with taxes as they should. If that were the case the states will have more resources to help where help is needed.

This was in the news some time ago: "Germany's super-rich have rejected an invitation by Bill Gates and Warren Buffett to join their 'Giving Pledge' to give away most of their fortune. The pledge has been criticized in Germany, with millionaires saying donations shouldn't replace duties that would be better carried out by the state."

I completely agree with that position. The state, voted by its citizens, should decide not the super-rich even when they have good intentions.