Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#171

Post by shrikrishna » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:01 AM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #121

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the lack of Internet truly that bad? India, while woefully poor in many places, is perhaps the most spiritually rich nation I have ever known. For all the stresses of life and distortions of industrialization, let alone internetification, they have far more inner resolve than most of us in the pill-popping West. To say that they have nothing if they reject an inch-wide glimpse of the Internet, provided by a compan…

It may be spiritual but it's also pretty fucked up in many ways not unrelated to the spirituality like bride burning, killing people who marry into the wrong cast, leading the world in modern slavery (14 million in the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery ) and in malutrition (nearly double that of Sub Saharan Africa, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition_in_India ). I think banni…

Get one thing straight. Free Basics is not about "bringing up" the poor. And among the "well off" are those who were poor once and have used knowledge from the internet to be wise enough to realize what is going on. Free Basics, if allowed to remain, will become a gatekeeper to the internet and will essentially become a barrier to entry to other services

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#172

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:09 AM UTC

manash wrote: post #107

tdaltonc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why not let [the customer] choose" is an argument that can be made of any net neutrality debate. Should there be fast-lanes in the US? TWC: We'll offer plans with and without fast-lanes and let the customers choose! Either the internet is the internet or it's not. Facebook wants to bring Facebook to rural villages? Fine, but they have to bring the whole internet with them.

"Should there be fast-lanes in the US?" Yes. Why not? Just like should there be expensive doctors, restaurants, entertainment, etc.? Obviously yes. "Either the internet is the internet or it's not. Facebook wants to bring Facebook to rural villages? Fine, but they have to bring the whole internet with them." My point is let the people in the rural villages decided wether they want Facebook internet or other forms of…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#173

Post by leereeves » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:09 AM UTC

petke wrote: post #170

leereeves wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't be a billion poor people getting free Facebook access. Indians who can afford smartphones and electricity, but not a basic data plan (how many?), will be getting Facebook access at the price of being subjected to advertising, tracking, etc.

People are crafty. You dont have to have electricity at home to charge your phone. Its enough there is one power source in the village. (There was a news story about a boy that built a windmill, and the villagers paid him a bit to charge their phones). You dont even need your own phone. You can share or rent one by the minute. Second hand smartphones are getting pretty cheap. 2.8 billion people live on less than 2 do…

> 2.8 billion people live on less than 2 dollars a day. A second hand smart phone might go for 20 dollars. So its a few weeks worth of savings.

Ten weeks income, and someone who lives on 2 dollars a day can't afford to save 100% of their income to buy a smartphone.

And how much would used smartphone prices increase if a billion people wanted to buy one?

Sharing or renting makes more sense, but in that case, why not share the cost of a data plan?

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#174

Post by prostoalex » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:11 AM UTC

tdaltonc wrote: post #88

manash wrote: post #74

Why not let "our less fortunate brothers" decided what they want. If they don't want free internet, then its their choice. How insane is it to let the TRAI regulate the internet! Do you not see the internet is the only real means of liberating people? And you want a group of elite people to control this! What happens to the "these airwaves belong to us" argument when the government bans anti-govt web sites or porn we…

"Why not let [the customer] choose" is an argument that can be made of any net neutrality debate. Should there be fast-lanes in the US? TWC: We'll offer plans with and without fast-lanes and let the customers choose! Either the internet is the internet or it's not. Facebook wants to bring Facebook to rural villages? Fine, but they have to bring the whole internet with them.

> Should there be fast-lanes in the US?

You mean like a company paying an ISP to place a server rack there and then reselling that server space branded as a Content Delivery Network to media companies who want their end consumers to have smoother experience (while the non-paying competition is stuck with "loading..." indicators)?

Nah, will never happen.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#175

Post by anilgulecha » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:17 AM UTC

On the ethics of this,

I'd like to know of the engineers/team in the chain of command who is responsible for the "Something went wrong" flag set on savetheinternet.in : http://i.imgur.com/K3JUack.png

Clearly this flag was not set on the grounds of pornography/violent matter/malicious link. This flag was instead set on a what is political speech, representing activists from a large swath of a democratic nation.

Consider how big of an attack this is on speech. Consider if a prominent website of any other political thought were thus flagged, and warned users away from.

To any folks from facebook reading this: please point out the team/engineers and the whole chain of command responsible for this flag -- this suppression is not a tiny thing.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#176

Post by chrischen » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:20 AM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #149

chrischen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is not doing this for altruistic reasons.

Good. Look at all of the good all of the altruistic foreign aid has done for the poor nations of the world. In case you aren't aware, it hasn't done much good at all, and often does a lot of harm by perpetuating corruption and undermining local markets. Capitalism is the most successful anti-poverty program in history the world. Facebook has found a way to make money by providing connectivity to a billion people. Wha…

Facebook is not being altruistic here, and there's no such as thing as free. Whenever a merchant offers "free shipping," they're just manipulating the customer and the cost is built in elsewhere.

When facebook offers "free internet," whatever benefits it provides, the cost is hidden and built in elsewhere in Facebook's business model. Which means such a free internet that facebook is supposedly altruistically providing is actually being paid for elsewhere, whether in higher ad costs for India or some other area of their business.

This means facebook is essentially skirting net neutrality by indrectly paying for people to only have access to Facebook.

This is on top of anticompetitiveness of the move. Giving anything away for free destroys natural competition in the ecosystem. See the case of TOM's shoes giving away free shoes and destroying local shoemakers.[1]

Their tactics here makes it justifiable for a country like China to block Facebook. Imagine if Facebook took over China, and started blasting political messages with ulterior motives to 2+ billion people, trying to influence them for corporate gain.

[1] http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2014/10/economic...

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#177

Post by Diamons » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:20 AM UTC

discardorama wrote: post #17

sremani wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let us not judge from Intellectual Ivory towers, the facts on the ground are 80% of Indians do not have internet access. You sometimes have to try "impure" methods. The question is still up in the air, whether FB Basics is gateway to full internet or if it is a walled garden. Either way, it is better than No Access. The immediate retort I get is, why not facebook provide free internet access to poor. Guys, is it thei…

> Let us not judge from Intellectual Ivory towers, Labeling someone who disagrees with you as being in an "ivory tower" is basically an ad-hominem. Argue the merits, not the source. > the facts on the ground are 80% of Indians do not have internet access. You sometimes have to try "impure" methods. The question is still up in the air, whether FB Basics is gateway to full internet or if it is a walled garden. Either w…

You are arguing that an ad hominem attack is by defacto incorrect. Ad hominem attacks provide context and explain how your point of view can be clouded or misguided.

Ad hominem attacks have been and always will be useful tools in debates.

Example: If you are rich and believe that the poor are lazy and always asking for handouts, it would be beneficial for someone to make an ad hominem attack towards your character and background as a wealthy person to help you see why your statements are biased.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#178

Post by wildmusings » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:29 AM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #176

wildmusings wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. Look at all of the good all of the altruistic foreign aid has done for the poor nations of the world. In case you aren't aware, it hasn't done much good at all, and often does a lot of harm by perpetuating corruption and undermining local markets. Capitalism is the most successful anti-poverty program in history the world. Facebook has found a way to make money by providing connectivity to a billion people. Wha…

Facebook is not being altruistic here, and there's no such as thing as free. Whenever a merchant offers "free shipping," they're just manipulating the customer and the cost is built in elsewhere. When facebook offers "free internet," whatever benefits it provides, the cost is hidden and built in elsewhere in Facebook's business model. Which means such a free internet that facebook is supposedly altruistically providi…

I'm not sure you read my comment.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#179

Post by ytpete » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:33 AM UTC

manash wrote: post #74

Why not let "our less fortunate brothers" decided what they want. If they don't want free internet, then its their choice. How insane is it to let the TRAI regulate the internet! Do you not see the internet is the only real means of liberating people? And you want a group of elite people to control this! What happens to the "these airwaves belong to us" argument when the government bans anti-govt web sites or porn we…

'Why not let the customer choose' can also be a generic argument against almost any kind of regulation. Why not have less strict regulations for food safety, or airlines, so various competitors can offer differing levels of safety - and if it matters enpugh to people, they'll choose the (more expensive) options with more safety. Is that freedom or is it capitalist anarchy?

I would argue (as many do) that government regulations have a place in enforcing basic guarantees of safety and fairness. And net neutrality strikes me as very important to guarantee fairness, both in terms of freedom of speech and a level playing field for innovation.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#180

Post by throwawaykf05 » Sat, Dec 26, 2015, 5:34 AM UTC

discardorama wrote: post #56

throwawaykf05 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if you could make calls on Reliance to only Reliance folks? Or what if Airtel charged you Rs. 20/min for calls to Docomo, but Rs 1/min to calls on Airtel? What if Facebook gave everybody in India free phones and free calling, even if it was only on Facebook phones? Would anyone have to be the errand boy for their neighbors' calls? I don't see how your experience where most could not afford any access (let alon…

> I don't see how your experience where most could not afford any access (let alone restricted access) to basic telephony applies to this scenario where a restricted service is being given for free. You're missing the point completely. My point is: we are on the path to progress. It's going the right way for the future of the people. But Facebook wants to derail it and lock you into their ecosystem. In the long run,…

And my point is, people who are here, posting against FB's initiative, obviously have Internet, which the poor don't even have, let alone Internet freedom. So what they're basically saying is, the poor should not have the same facilities that I am enjoying, because I am worried about them being locked-in and I know better than them what they want.