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Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

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Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#121

Post by tim333 »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #79
petke wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree Facebook is doing this for their own greedy reasons, but they make one very good point: "Banning free basics on the basis of net neutrality [...] means 1 billion people cant afford to access any services." It isn't a choice between having facebook, or having the full internet. Its a choice between having facebook, or having no internet at all. Surely no internet at all, is the worst option. Nobody else is goi…

Is the lack of Internet truly that bad? India, while woefully poor in many places, is perhaps the most spiritually rich nation I have ever known. For all the stresses of life and distortions of industrialization, let alone internetification, they have far more inner resolve than most of us in the pill-popping West. To say that they have nothing if they reject an inch-wide glimpse of the Internet, provided by a compan…

It may be spiritual but it's also pretty fucked up in many ways not unrelated to the spirituality like bride burning, killing people who marry into the wrong cast, leading the world in modern slavery (14 million in the Wikipedia article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery) and in malutrition (nearly double that of Sub Saharan Africa, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition_in_India). I think banning those people from a free if a bit crappy internet service because the well off are offended by the idea of it being provided by Facebook is dubious.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#122

Post by jeevand »

tim333 wrote: post #116
jeevand wrote: post #96

Coming from a rural farming community in India i think this is a very bad deal. I speak with my folks when i visit India about how they use technology. The use cases are very practical such as turning off/on the pumpset, since the fields are far and the power comes and goes at different times, this kind of app is amazing. I can think of similar use cases once IoT takes off. ex: Checking the water levels in paddy fiel…

It seems kind of a mixed deal for that stuff. Apparently you can submit your app to use free basics and stuff like you mention should qualify. On the other hand it's easier to put a service on the regular web than to have to apply to Facebook. Actually hacking free basics might be good for things like checking the water levels - you could get a cheap phone pointed at the tank with an app to look at the water, use Fac…

I am weary of the gatekeepers, they can change the rules when they want. What would really help from a long term perspective is to provide very low cost data plans, this might not happen if we go the free basics route since telcos have vested interest in keeping the free basics forever by jacking up the cost of data plans.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#123

Post by elemenopy »

such_a_casual wrote: post #78
TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wikipedia is a pretty shady organization. Wikimedia. They do a lot more than just the encyclopædia. > For years they have used server costs as one of the main reasons (and in the some cases the main reason) why people should donate. But their finance reports paint a very different picture. Their server costs reflect a very small percentage of their overall costs. Server costs are not the only thing they need to spe…

So you are going to ignore everything I said to talk about what you want to talk about? cool. Wikipedia's financial statements are easy to find and they provide them for you: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Financial_reports#2010.... I'll go over my first point, and you can decide whether you want to continue to ignore my actual statements: 1. They use server costs to plea for donations. This is deceptive and di…

To quote from the screenshot you linked of a typical Wikimedia Foundation advertisement: [1]

"We ... have costs like any other top site: servers, power, rent, programs, staff and legal help."

I count six costs listed there. Doesn't look like "pretty shady" advertising to me.

Also, "internet hosting costs" in the financial statements isn't all the money spent on IT-related costs. For example, computer equipment is counted as an investment which then depreciates. In the 2011 financial statements you linked, Wikimedia spent $3.2m on computer equipment and $1m on depreciation (though depreciation would also include things like furniture). [2]

You also haven't provided any evidence for your claim Wikimedia promotes "purposeful backlinking to their for profit sites".

Finally, although it's an imperfect way to analyse charities, Charity Navigator gives Wikimedia Foundation 93.5/100, an excellent score. [3]

1. http://regmedia.co.uk/2012/11/28/wikipedia_chugging_fullsize...

2. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/a/ac/FINAL...

3. http://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=search.summary...

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#124

Post by rubyn00bie »

petke wrote: post #70
erbdex wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a screenshot of what's the permanent top-notification if you're an Indian and on Facebook- http://imgur.com/uykRY8G

I agree Facebook is doing this for their own greedy reasons, but they make one very good point: "Banning free basics on the basis of net neutrality [...] means 1 billion people cant afford to access any services." It isn't a choice between having facebook, or having the full internet. Its a choice between having facebook, or having no internet at all. Surely no internet at all, is the worst option. Nobody else is goi…

You are incorrect in how you labeled your second "choice," it should be:

"Its a choice between having Facebook, or having no Facebook at all."

Do not let them confuse you into comparing the two... What you just said is why this sort of think makes my fucking blood boil (no anger at you friend, it's with the institution manipulating you).

What they are trying to do, and this really pisses me off, is rebrand "internet" to "Facebook," for poor Indians. A group who as of right now is unaware of the difference and less apt to understand the evils of the marketing engine behind it because they are not yet connected.

Tangent: they are making this so much worse by using government built spectrum. What the fuck kind of perverse asshole thought that would be okay?

... Back to the point.

Think about this, from an infrastructure standpoint: it will cost them more in firewalls and configuration to limit the Internet than to simply allow unfettered access.

I'm not even kidding, they are going to spend more money implementing basic access than by just giving out plain ol' Internet. Knowing that, I find it pretty fucking audacious Facebook thinks we are all so fucking stupid to accept that line of shit.

Okay... they know we won't but we don't matter to their growth target. They need mobile users, that aren't already users, that they can exploit for money (ad views, sponsored content) or their stock will tank because they aren't going to hit their growth target for Qn.

So where do they look? The world's poor. They go in and offer "internet," and market it to them as a "right" or some sort of moral high ground. Then back home they market their "humanitarian" efforts making for some touching PR moments.

/slow-clap "nice work, assholes."

And finally for how this is actually worse than "no Facebook at all," is because FB's marketing machine will go around saying to governments and media "don't worry about India's Internet, we fixed it." This, I promise, will slow the development, if not halt it, because other organizations non-profit or for-profit will think it's a done deal. Even scarier is that the people in those areas won't want "internet," because "Facebook is good enough."

Digital slavery is what this should be called. It should be abhorred. It should be vilified. It should not be tolerated. We should all be angry.

Edit: Updates for grammar and to let person I was replying to know I'm not at all upset at them or trying to direct anger their way.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#125

Post by rando289 »

rexpop wrote: post #120

While I'm curious about the pros and cons of a gratis walled garden, was the greater offense the way Facebook used their presence to affect political change? Would it have been offensive to do so in an attempt to counteract pollution?

Yes. If it was an extremely self interested cleanup of only a certain kind of pollution which it would only help with on the condition that other more important kinds of pollution increased or got much less attention, and would lead to much worse long term consequences, and facebook was completelly scummy spamming everyone about "if you don't want this, you want babies to die of pollution."

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#126

Post by rsync »

The real question is, will facebook lobby against, and attempt to disallow, free community / coop network access ?

It's one thing to trick a bunch of poor people into thinking you're giving them free Internet access ... it's still free.

It's quite another to then shackle them by manipulating their legal system into disallowing any other free options.

I have a lot on my plate right now, but it sure would be interesting to do a very small scale proof of concept free wifi mesh anywhere in India ... just to see who that pisses off ... I see my favorite bulk IP provider (he.net) has zero presence in India, so that doesn't make things quick and simple ... we'll see ...

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#127

Post by jarsj »

mahranch wrote: post #105
jarsj wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you have no idea what this is really about. All we are asking our Govt. is to adopt same Net Neutrality standards that exist in US and other EU countries. Companies like Uber/Amazon are already pumping huge money in India because they need us, not vice-versa. Just because we are open, unlike China, doesn't mean you can play unfair.

> All we are asking our Govt. is to adopt same Net Neutrality standards that exist in US and other EU countries. I understand that, and support it 100%. I am 100% pro-net neutrality. > Just because we are open, unlike China, doesn't mean you can play unfair. My issue is that India will play unfair. They have a history of it. Say what you will about all the people who have their own anecdotal bad experiences with Indi…

Yes. A lot of things are fked up in India. That's not an argument to mess up one more. Internet is one thing we got right. Freedom of Speech, Online Censorship, Running an Internet Startup are no different than in US, even better. For starters, Our government doesn't spy. We don't get trolled for stupid patents. ETC

There are thousands of excellent Indian professionals, leading some of the top companies in the world. It's your loss if you make your opinion from the bad ones. We just have too many people.

Also, 2015 was the biggest ever in terms of VC deals 10+ Billion USD, Foreign Investments, etc.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#128

Post by jmspring »

spaceman_2020 wrote: post #43

Indian here. The manipulation has been incredibly blatant and scummy. It's not even funny anymore. Friends who categorically denied having sent a mail to the Indian telecom regulatory authority on Facebook's behalf (conveniently supplied by Facebook) show up on my feed as having signed the mail. It's an all-out blitzkrieg. I've seen full page ads in newspapers, banners at bus stops, even ads on local Indian websites.…

It doesn't sound any different than what Facebook does regularly. "X likes Y, do you want to like it?", ask X in person, they never liked Y.

Facebook, despite the fact I use it, is a slimy ad platform that creates stories at the expense of those that use it. I mean they "market their customer usage".

I've yet to see an explanation for the fictitious likes.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#129

Post by throwaway2048 »

prostoalex wrote: post #99
Crito wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they truly had altruistic intentions, they damn well could be.

Sure but what's a solution that's a reasonable compromise until that happens?

its not a "reasonable compromise" from the point of view that Facebook is supposedly acting altruistically, this is a 100% self interested power play.

Re: Facebook is misleading Indians with its full-page ads about Free Basics

#130

Post by jeevand »

mahranch wrote: post #105
jarsj wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you have no idea what this is really about. All we are asking our Govt. is to adopt same Net Neutrality standards that exist in US and other EU countries. Companies like Uber/Amazon are already pumping huge money in India because they need us, not vice-versa. Just because we are open, unlike China, doesn't mean you can play unfair.

> All we are asking our Govt. is to adopt same Net Neutrality standards that exist in US and other EU countries. I understand that, and support it 100%. I am 100% pro-net neutrality. > Just because we are open, unlike China, doesn't mean you can play unfair. My issue is that India will play unfair. They have a history of it. Say what you will about all the people who have their own anecdotal bad experiences with Indi…

> India has a long history of reneging on deals. Once a deal is struck with most nations, that's it. Done deal. With India, they don't care - they'll do whatever is convenient for them.

Most nations will do whatever is convenient for them. ex: If you are from US, GOP says they will cancel the Iran nuclear deal

> Hell, even Russia and China won't back out of deals once struck. They'll piss and moan if it turns out they got the short end of the stick, but they'll still honor the deal.

Not tue, ex: Hong Kong democracy

> I tell my clients to steer clear of India for this very reason - it's nearly impossible to know when a deal is "solid".

You just described all the other countries apart from developed countries where there are no severe penalties for walking out of a deal

> My issue is that India will play unfair. They have a history of it.

Every country does it. ex: Union carbide CEO lived happily in US till he died

> That's not good for India. Investors will (and are) balking at the idea of entering the Indian market because who knows when India will pull the rug out from under them when the mood strikes.

Investors know the risks, Equity Risk Premiums are higher for India (& other developing countries). If investors don't invest in India or China due to inherent risks then they might loose out in the long run given that the future returns from developed world will not be great

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