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Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

stavros.io

141–150 of 243 posts

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#141
post #5

I hate that the best user experience for logins is "Login with facebook" or "Login with Google". I don't want to impose that privacy failure on my users, but I also don't want to impose the annoyance that is "Sign up with a username, email address, and password". Offering all of the options is also a compromise that complicates the user experience. Now, here's the sad thing, for me: I didn't even know Persona existed…

Facebook Anonymous Login is definitely a step in the right direction to address those concerns. And yet it's hardly adopted anywhere. I think you're underestimating the importance of Facebook information towards making viable free content. The basic, accurate information you receive from the FB SDK really helps salespeople identify qualified leads for trial-to-paid conversions; the info also can be used to tell you w…

Facebook’s “Anonymous Login” doesn’t protect you in any way from Facebook, it’s for hiding information Facebook owns about your life from other websites. So it doesn’t help with this:

>The basic, accurate information you receive from the FB SDK really helps salespeople identify qualified leads for trial-to-paid conversions; the info also can be used to tell you what other websites people visit or software they use. This really helps make sales and improve your software in a way that seems generally net positive for consumers and producers.

but does nothing at all to protect your privacy.

> And yet it's hardly adopted anywhere.

That’s because it’s Public Relations. Just like their TOR gateway. Just like Zuckerberg’s LLC “charity.” Just like everything else they do[1].

“Steps in the right direction” is the signature move of modern corporate PR.

[1] http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/258060-advocate-accu...

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#142
post #5

I hate that the best user experience for logins is "Login with facebook" or "Login with Google". I don't want to impose that privacy failure on my users, but I also don't want to impose the annoyance that is "Sign up with a username, email address, and password". Offering all of the options is also a compromise that complicates the user experience. Now, here's the sad thing, for me: I didn't even know Persona existed…

Facebook Anonymous Login is definitely a step in the right direction to address those concerns. And yet it's hardly adopted anywhere. I think you're underestimating the importance of Facebook information towards making viable free content. The basic, accurate information you receive from the FB SDK really helps salespeople identify qualified leads for trial-to-paid conversions; the info also can be used to tell you w…

Facebook Anonymous Login is a menace to the open internet.

As a website operator, these are no longer your users, they're Facebook's users, and Facebook can take them away from you at any time.

As a user, these are no longer your website accounts, they're Facebook's website accounts, and Facebook can take them away from you at any time.

Putting Facebook in complete control of identity is not healthy for anyone. At least when you get email addresses from Facebook, you can bootstrap an independent relationship with your customers if necessary. From the user's perspective: If Facebook blocks your account, the website operator can still validate your ownership with the email address.

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#143
post #82

Disclaimer: I work for Mozilla, I maintain django-browserid (and StravosK is a valued contributor many sites. This is all just my own personal opinion. I was very bullish on Persona early on, but the fact of the matter is, we failed . And not just because (as I feel is being implied) some higher up suddenly came over and asked for an unreasonable amount of adoption for a revolutionary product. We failed for a thousan…

> It should've been supported directly within the Firefox chrome ASAP.

That could have been fixed, and could still be fixed.

> It had branding different than the site you logged in to and was in a popup[1].

That could have been fixed, and could still be fixed.

> It took the name of another Firefox feature that users already knew about.

That could have been fixed, and could still be fixed really, but it's pointless now.

> Because the team was experimenting fast, the code quality of the service was such that outside contribution to it (or even cross-team contribution internally) was hard to impossible.

That could have been fixed, and could still be fixed.

> We had enough time to do these things, but we didn't. The team accomplished something really amazing, but it wasn't enough, and most importantly, putting more effort into what already existed was not going to work. This idea that Mozilla can just turn around and throw effort at Persona and make it win now is, IMO, wrong.

Why wouldn't it make it work? Persona was only alive for 2 years. It saw slow adoption, in part due to usability issues. If you fix the usability issues and give it more time, why wouldn't it be more successful? The issues holding it back were not fundamental. In fact, the fundamental design of Persona was sound and worked very well.

Now, yes, merely fixing things and making the project supported again won't make it more successful overnight. It may need rebranding, it may need a lot of promotion, strategic partnerships, etc. But to declare it completely dead and waste effort on recreating what you already have is silly and counterproductive.

Persona already has many sites - and people! - using it. It already has some (limited) brand recognition. It already has a solid protocol and design, a working codebase, a hosted service that is usable.

The hypothetical successor to Persona? It has none of this. A hypothetical new approach? It has none of this. Could that change? Sure, but you're still starting from zero, and you have to re-do everything.

But why start again when what you had wasn't fundamentally broken?

> We need a successor or a new project.

Why? What could a successor or new project bring that Persona couldn't?

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#144
post #5

I hate that the best user experience for logins is "Login with facebook" or "Login with Google". I don't want to impose that privacy failure on my users, but I also don't want to impose the annoyance that is "Sign up with a username, email address, and password". Offering all of the options is also a compromise that complicates the user experience. Now, here's the sad thing, for me: I didn't even know Persona existed…

> And, I didn't even know it was an option until it stopped being an option. Not to take away from your overall point, but you can still very much use persona: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Persona (linked from https://login.persona.org/ )

[deleted]

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And, I didn't even know it was an option until it stopped being an option. Not to take away from your overall point, but you can still very much use persona: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Persona (linked from https://login.persona.org/ )

Cool. I'll give it a shot. There is a Drupal module for it (I run Drupal on my current primary site, for now), though it only has 38 active installs, which is somewhat worrying.

From what I read (very very briefly), the spec is similar to what OpenID was, in that anyone who runs a web server can become an authentication provider. Ideally there'd be a distributed-hash-table type web-of-trust so its semi-centralized (i.e. somewhat like PGP or BGP routing tables where you peer with people you trust).

Now that 1st party browser certificates are available so you get that Trusty-Green-Lock(tm) on all browsers, geeks can theoretically run their own identity service based on some sort of combination of these technologies. (Ideally with the long term outcome solving the "Why Johnny can't have Crypto" problem, maybe using a cell phone app as an RSA SecurID type dongle.) This also has the benefit of letting you authenticate against your bud John's Identity Server, rather than Go-fuck-yourself-Fred's (you'd need token negotiation in there somehow though).

Someone smarter than me (DJB where are you?) should piece this together, release it as open source for the end-user, and fund it via expensive Exchange module integration.

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#146
I was an early adopter of Persona (my site is billed as example in the docs) and was similarly disappointed when Mozilla gave up on it.

In retrospect, I think that Mozilla made a mistake by centralizing the fallback identity provider. The fallback provider was just a temporary edifice to bootstrap the protocols; it didn't have to be run by Mozilla. Every website could have run a small stack which remained fully self-branded and would only verify email addresses for its own purposes.

I understand why Mozilla took the route they did - centralizing the fallback provider eased the RP implementation, made it possible to rapidly rev the protocols, and in theory made it more convenient for users since one Persona password would work across multiple sites. In practice, however, users were confused about the extra branding and the vague sense of logging into Persona so you can log into a site. More critically, it made the whole project depend on the whims of Mozilla - it's not just software we depend on, but infrastructure, and without Mozilla's support the infrastructure will eventually die.

If Persona is revived, I hope it becomes a complete software stack that every RP can run independently. The fallback IdP should be 100% branded by the RP so users are never confused about what site they are logging into. And as non-hosted software, it should be able to live and evolve as open source software without fear that some tepidly supported server will go down (or simply fail to evolve). IMHO, this is the only way that Persona (or at least the auth standard, which is what we care about) can survive long-term as a community project.

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#147

I don't really see the point in this and this is why: let's say Persona won and all the big ones switched to it (Facebook, Google, Twitter etc.) by becoming providers. Most people would still be using their Facebook, Google or Twitter persona anyway (except for a few privacy sensitive users who don't like SaaS anyway because it's bad for privacy according to them). So we would have a situation that would be de facto…

You misunderstand how Persona works. You can't log in with Facebook or Twitter, because they don't provide your email address. You can log in with an email address, and the email provider doesn't know what sites you're logging in to.

Try https://pastery.net, log in there. If you have a Gmail account, you'll just click "accept" and you're in.

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#148
post #36

Anyone who wants to see a demo of it, just sign-in here (top right): https://login.persona.org/ Anyone who wants to see how easy it is to deploy (JS on your page, a button, and callback verifier on your server): https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Persona/Quick_Setup Anyone who wants to see it in action: https://www.lfgss.com/ I love everything about Persona except for the fact that Mozilla are no longer supporting a…

I just tested the sign-in demo, on persona.org & lfgss.com. Persona feels like the on shared 1st place best login experience I've seen.

Actually marginally better than Gmail, for me, because with Persona, I understood which address I signed in with, at lfgss.com. Gmail, however, doens't let me know which account I sign in with, if I'm logged in with just one of my Gmail account. Then Gmail silently assumes that's the account I want to use, although it might not be. Persona, however, clarified which Gmail account I was using.

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#149
Persona seemed like the right identity product for its time, but technology has moved on in the years since. We now have blockchains: shared, publicly-writable databases that are perfect for hosting identities that users fully control. Figuring out decentralized identity is part of my day job, and if it's something you're interested in building or talking about, email me: niran@niran.org.

Re: Open Letter to Mozilla: Bring Back Persona

#150
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having used Persona on my last project, I'd agree. The article brushes aside the "no traction" bit and says, basically, "the idea was awesome". But that's why we test ideas and measure them by results like traction: not all great ideas turn into great products. Persona as deployed was an appealing idea that did not provide a great user experience (or really, a great developer experience). To fill the gap, you need to…

The entire point of "Persona" is that it was actually something in the backend called "BrowserID" that was supposed to integrate with the browser instead of running some random JS widget in a page. Well, Mozilla never even finished implementing the first version of that before they declared "no traction"! What nonsense!

Having native code handle something in the browser instead of a thin, easily verifiable javascript widget seems the opposite of a more secure solution.
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