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Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

qz.com

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Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#81

Post by seanmcdirmid »

analyst74 wrote: post #36
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When the root cause is bad government that can't enforce environmental laws due to corruption...and you are the government who doesn't want to change (say by more accountability via elections and a free press), looking for something that instead treats the symptoms is attractive. Make no mistake, China's pollution problem is very much a political one.

The root cause is focusing on economical development over everything else, including staggering inequality, pollution, and others. The central governments' inability to enforce local municipalities to do whatever they want, is actually result of the shifting political structure from a single autocratic ruler during Mao's era to a more technocratic/autonomous style of ruling. This is a good thing, although it does cre…

It isn't that simple, right now it is a basic prisoner's dilemma: if factory A & B follow the law, they both have higher costs but these can be passed on; if A follows the law and B does not, then A goes out of business as their costs are higher than B; if A & B don't follow the law, then the environmental costs are passed on. Right now, the last case wins because the laws aren't enforced evenly.

China is not a dictatorship, but it is definitely autocratic even if the autocracy is distributed. Local party leaders are just as autocratic as central party leaders, and generally are more corrupt (getting more for their family, for example).

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#82

Post by seanmcdirmid »

contingencies wrote: post #78
kctess5 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an interesting dilema

... and precisely the sort of issue that only the Chinese government face. Hand-waving external commentators are quick to identify differences and ascribe guilt and blame, but often decisions must be made with consequences no honest and empathetic person would wish to set in motion. Look at the hydropower projects versus US military dominance of global oil... China (1.4 billion) is about 32% of Asia's (4.3b) populati…

We all get that the Chinese government has to make tough decisions. All we are asking for is transparency and accountability, which would lead to better (less corrupt) decisions in the long term.

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#83

Post by scott_karana »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #77
mistercow wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would their customers do that?

So that less coal product is emitted into the atmosphere? I thought that was the premise.

I think he wasn't being literal, and meant, "why wouldn't they want electricity?"

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#84

Post by scott_karana »

Retric wrote: post #42
analyst74 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if this is a joke, but China is more like unregulated capitalism than communism, it's probably more capitalistic than most European countries.

Corruption != capitalism. With the right connections you can get away with ridiculous crap, but rules as written are not that friendly. Which creates lots of problems for small companies.

> Corruption != capitalism

Wealth disparities are always going to allow for corruption, aren't they?

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#85

Post by scott_karana »

myztic wrote: post #55
jkrejci wrote: post #35

Or you know, you can just like not pollute the shit out of the Earth. China is the worst.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/datablog/2009/sep/02/... + China 9,679.30 GHG emissions (MtCO2e)[1], United States 6,668.79 GHG emissions (MtCO2e)[1] - population China ~1.3 billion[2], population United States ~330 million[3] Do the math! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_China [3] http://www.census.gov/popclock/

That's just CO2. What about sulphur oxides, particulate matter, and the like?

"Pollution" is a general term.

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#86

Post by contingencies »

wooter wrote: post #63
analyst74 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely still some communist elements there, like large state owned enterprises and a very controlling/authoritarian government. But some of the key definitions of capitalism is quite entrenched in the society: - means of production are privately owned - profit-motive - market-driven economy / competition - inequality - minimal government interference China definitely does not fit all the hard-core capit…

inequality as part of the definition of capitalism? talk about intellectual dishonesty. has inequality gone up or down since when China had more "communist elements"?

You ask a question that was already answered: inequality is entrenched in society. Yes, it has obviously gone way up during and since the transition from traditional communism, when almost everyone was pretty much equally Mao-suit + rice + red-book poor.

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#87

Post by jsprogrammer »

scott_karana wrote: post #83
jsprogrammer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that less coal product is emitted into the atmosphere? I thought that was the premise.

I think he wasn't being literal, and meant, "why wouldn't they want electricity?"

Well, if the production of your electricity kills or otherwise significantly harms you, you may not wish to have that electricity.

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#88

Post by scott_karana »

jsprogrammer wrote: post #87
scott_karana wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he wasn't being literal, and meant, "why wouldn't they want electricity?"

Well, if the production of your electricity kills or otherwise significantly harms you, you may not wish to have that electricity.

I agree, but it's not necessarily an obvious (or easy) choice to make for someone who's poor, for example...

And that's even if they can correlate them properly.

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#89

Post by tokenadult »

It occurs to me, after reading this story a second time and reviewing the latest comments posted to this thread, that this is a science story that wasn't reported by a science journalist. It's not at all clear--only a company spokesman is quoted on the point--that the machine even WORKS. It's also not at all clear, even if the machine is effective at reducing air pollution (where is the independent evidence?), that it is as good for that or as inexpensive for that as other measures that might be taken to reduce air pollution. The town I grew up in has much less air pollution today than it had when I was young. The newly industrialized countries of east Asia (I am most familiar with Taiwan, but the fact is the same in other countries in the region) have less air pollution today than they had in their worst years. There is a lot known about technology and a lot known about effective regulation for reducing air pollution. This story really needs an experienced science reporter, not a rookie in international reporting, to tell the accurate story about what's the best thing to do to handle China's horrific problem with air pollution.[1]

[1] "Study Links Polluted Air in China to 1.6 Million Deaths a Year" (New York Times 13 August 2015)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/world/asia/study-links-pol...

Chinese version of story: "研究称中国每年有160万人死于空气污染"

http://cn.nytimes.com/china/20150814/c14pollution/

Other recent QZ articles about China, by other authors:

http://qz.com/on/chinas-transition/

Re: Chinese cities use “mist cannon” to shoot pollution from the sky

#90

Post by Laforet »

analyst74 wrote: post #70
jewbacca wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But now you have to use like 6 layers of VPN, change patterns of navigation Please explain further.

Since Xi Jinping took power, the government has stepped up their internet censorship efforts, banning many well known VPN. According to some accounts, they also utilize some sort of dynamic filter to determine if you are accessing censored content or using non-blocked VPN. How exactly they do that is unknown, but the fact is, it's much harder to visit censored websites now than before.

The otherbl commentor was probably using OpenVPN which is easy to target.

Most other protocols continue to work well as long as your provider is not being targeted.

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