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The cold fusion horizon

aeon.co

11–20 of 198 posts

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#11
This cold fusion guy supposedly has a 1MW plant in test at an industrial site. That should be verifiable.

Nobody seems to know if Theranos' technology actually works, even the investors. With a multi-billion valuation, that's a big problem.

Nobody seems to be sure whether the D-Wave quantum computer really does anything "quantum", even though they've shipped products.

How did we get to the point where we can't even verify claims for supposedly working technologies?

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#12
After some study of reactionless drive, I'm somewhat ready to accept that there is a lot to be learned about physics: http://www.gizmag.com/cannae-reactionless-drive-space-propul...

I'm certainly open minded about LENR, although the "free" energy attract a lot of shady characters.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#13
post #6

A good documentary to watch is Fire from Water. There has been a lot of work into LENR and a lot of it is positive. Toyota dedicated a two years research division to it. The trouble is it's not consistent, and when excess heart is recorded, we're not sure why. I'm sure this is of those fields that needs a "eureka" moment where some group figures out what might be simple missing pieces.

If cold fusion research was tested with more accuracy, it would be a more respectable thing to research (or at least not laughed out of the room).

All of the tests on cold fusion/LENR devices never seem to use appropriate measurement tools for the measured range, much less the gold standard methods for counting energy in/out, leading to enough error you could hide a truck.

No more calculating energy from thermal camera pictures from 1 side of the device without checking periodically if the heat output is uniform. Similarly, they like to use 3-phase input power when a standard wall-plug power would do. Measuring 3 Phase power in these cases is like trying to measure the weight of a person using a truck scale. Also you can do more shenanigans with 3 phase that the meter wouldn't pick up, which due to the history of scams in this field is even more important that the power being fed to the device is proved to not have anything funny going on.

I'd like for cold fusion to be true, but in order for them to be taken seriously, they need to test the devices with much more rigor.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#14
He says that failing to recreate Fleischmann and Pons' findings isn't enough reason to doubt their claims because recreating results is tricky, and implies that therefore we have no actual reason to doubt that they achieved cold fusion. But we do.

Not only did their apparatus, according to their own measurements, not produce any of the radiation that would be an unavoidable byproduct of fusion, but the core also didn't contain any fusion byproducts. As a result I think it's perfectly reasonable to conclude that they could not possibly, in any if their experiments, have achieved Fusion. If their measurements of excess heat are true, whatever it's source was, it wasn't fusion.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#15
post #11

This cold fusion guy supposedly has a 1MW plant in test at an industrial site. That should be verifiable. Nobody seems to know if Theranos' technology actually works, even the investors. With a multi-billion valuation, that's a big problem. Nobody seems to be sure whether the D-Wave quantum computer really does anything "quantum", even though they've shipped products. How did we get to the point where we can't even v…

When "fake it until you make it" is a widely spread mantra, people get good at the "fake it" part.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#16
post #15
post #11

This cold fusion guy supposedly has a 1MW plant in test at an industrial site. That should be verifiable. Nobody seems to know if Theranos' technology actually works, even the investors. With a multi-billion valuation, that's a big problem. Nobody seems to be sure whether the D-Wave quantum computer really does anything "quantum", even though they've shipped products. How did we get to the point where we can't even v…

When "fake it until you make it" is a widely spread mantra, people get good at the "fake it" part.

And then realise, you never actually have to make it

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#17
post #11

This cold fusion guy supposedly has a 1MW plant in test at an industrial site. That should be verifiable. Nobody seems to know if Theranos' technology actually works, even the investors. With a multi-billion valuation, that's a big problem. Nobody seems to be sure whether the D-Wave quantum computer really does anything "quantum", even though they've shipped products. How did we get to the point where we can't even v…

All of these claims can be verified (or shown to be false), they just aren't. If you're charitable, it's because of the need for secrecy. If you're realistic^Wcynical, it's because the stuff doesn't work.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and I have also read other sources, especially with regard to Rossi. e.g: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1306/1306.6364.pdf http://www.sott.net/article/241427-E-Cat-Cold-Fusion-Machine...

Then I hope you see the irony in your comment, and why the first reply was a little incredulous. I'm not defending Rossi, BTW. The odds are very, very, very good that it's another scam. But it's not impossible that he's on to something and that's exactly what the article's author points to, along with lamenting how tragic it would be if cold fusion turned out to be real and we wasted 20 years not pursuing it because…

I am wondering if we read the same article. The author uncritically cites already-discredited studies in favor of the E-Cat without noting the doubt that surrounds them, and only mentions fraud as being so improbable as to effectively dismiss it. He is apparently literally salivating over his expectation that he will be proved right.

FWIW, I know cold fusion is not definitively ruled out by physics, I would be thrilled if it were realized, I think it is a valid area of research and I always thought that Pons and Fleischmann were treated far too harshly, but ignoring strong indications of fraud is only going to make that case harder to make. I hope you can see that these are not mutually contradictory opinions.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#19
I think there's definitely a cultural problem where the outcome of an experiment is associated with the reputation of the scientist who performed it. We see this in the bias to publish only positive results - as though if an experiment did not make findings of significance it is a failing of the scientist who performed it - and we see this in the reluctance of many scientists to investigate that which would be very surprising if found to be true.

The NASA research into the EmDrive is an excellent example of this. The discovery of a method of propulsion which does not consume onboard mass yet achieves energy efficiencies greater than that of a photon rocket would be extremely surprising, which makes it all the more important that apparent effects such as these are investigated. The correct response on seeing an unexpected experimental result is not to ignore it or to assume the experiment is wrong (although that should be treated with a high probability), but to report it and to systematically investigate the discrepancy until either the unexpected result is confirmed with a degree of evidence commensurate with its unexpectedness or the error is discovered. Extreme skepticism can be equally as bad as extreme gullibility, and it is extremely discourteous to imply or to assume the existence of fraud, or to attack the character of the researcher unless there is overwhelming evidence supporting such an aspersion. Even if it might by probabilistically justified to promote the possibility of fraud on the part of the scientist to the most likely explanation for an unexpected result, this has negative externalities on entire scientific fields and forces researchers to "stake their reputations" on publishing surprising results, which is just the sort of perverse situation we should strive to avoid.

Re: The cold fusion horizon

#20
post #14

He says that failing to recreate Fleischmann and Pons' findings isn't enough reason to doubt their claims because recreating results is tricky, and implies that therefore we have no actual reason to doubt that they achieved cold fusion. But we do. Not only did their apparatus, according to their own measurements, not produce any of the radiation that would be an unavoidable byproduct of fusion, but the core also didn…

I don't think the point of this piece is to claim Fleischmann and Pons actually succeeded. I think the point is that there is a difference between the failure of a particular experiment, and proving that all experiments in cold fusion will fail.

Fleischmann and Pons was certainly not the only science experiment to produce a false positive in 1989, but it was a huge, public failure, in a research area that is filled with cranks (easy energy). I agree with the article's author that it probably tarnished an area of research that, while far-fetched, should not be automatically dismissed as impossible.

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