Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#51

Post by captn3m0 » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 12:44 PM UTC

magic_man wrote: post #7

captn3m0 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the "some internet access is better than none" argument. However, the end result is - facebook controlling internet access for those people - Zero Rating creates an imbalance in the ecosystem, favoring websites and services that can get into the walled garden - facebook gets to mine your usage data. There are better ways of improving internet access, such as : - The Mozilla Foundation runs a program with Gram…

Did you never use these free AOL CDs when you were a kid. Yes they did provide access to the entire internet, but it was designed to get people to use AOL. I am not going to complain about free internet even if it is walled.

I'm going to copy-paste from a comment on mine from 6 months back[0]:

As an Indian, believe me when I say this: "We already have good internet". Our data rates are extremely cheap. I paid less than 1 INR per day (it costs more to get a cup of coffee, which costs around 5-10 bucks) while using Opera Mini on a Nokia dumbphone.

India has progressed beyond the point where rich corporations need to help our country. We have amongst the world's largest telecom industry and usage statistics. Everyone owns a cellphone, and more and more people are realizing the benefits of a smartphone (Whatsapp primarily, which is way cheaper than SMS).

A basic android smartphone costs 100 USD in India. If a person can purchase a smartphone that costly to "access the internet", they are rich enough to afford a data plan (which costs around 3 USD/month).

India does not need free internet. What we need is cheaper and better internet and companies trying to use this internet in the first place (which is already happening with ecommerce). There is no point of giving internet to people unless they have a use for it.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9485334

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#52

Post by Ar-Curunir » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 12:49 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #19

I don't think people crying for net neutrality understand how many people in India still do not have Internet access. Even free access to facebook changes people's lives in a better way. I belong to a small village in eastern UP, and the Internet penetration is still very less there. The Internet has huge potential to change people's lives for the better, and I have experienced it in my own life. Lots of people still…

Would you still be OK with that knowing that Facebook gets to spy on their browsing habits and steal their data? My family originates from Bihar, and so I've seen my share of poverty. But being poor doesn't mean that you don't have basic human rights of privacy. HTTPS doesn't work with internet.org for a large set of phones still used in India. So not only can FB spy on you, anyone eavesdropping on your connection can too.

The last time the West tried to help us and bring 'enlightenment', we were enslaved for 200+ years. Do you want that again?

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#53

Post by l1feh4ck » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 12:50 PM UTC

zinghaboi wrote: post #39

Lets look at two extremes. ->India without net neutrality: Everyone has free Facebook. "Free basics" didn't help in advancing electrification of the country but it did provide free facebook/wikipedia to everyone. So 30% of the country is still in dark. But 50% of the rest of India doesn't pay for internet and it thinks there is no need to because that is ALL the internet has to offer. A young founder launches a new e…

The whole Business Model build up on the freebases cannot work if they provide free access to the whole internet. Considering that we are talking about Facebook here. Things could go very wrong once it is implemented. It should be killed without second thought.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#54

Post by enitihas » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 12:50 PM UTC

abhaga wrote: post #43

enitihas wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is any loss of significant future opportunity. When someone will be able to afford the Internet, they will start using whichever service they find fit. Till then for those people, I can't overstate how important free access to even this limited Internet is. Even free access to wikipedia and facebook helps a lot of people in a lot of ways. Fun Story: One day I was with the brother of a friend of mi…

You are assuming that the other services can just wait it out while people break out of FB ecosystem and discover them. Development of these kind of walled gardens significantly harm the development of independent services. That is one of the main problem. If everyone had free Orkut and no access to FB, how long would it have taken Facebook to catch on?

I am not assuming anything. People who don't have internt access are not using those service anyways. So those services will continue at their natural pace. So I don't see how free basics will harm the development of independent services. Regarding Orkut, it had a lot of users before facebook arrived on the scene. But Facebook was just so much better that everyone eventually jumped on it. I doubt the outcome would have been any different had Orkut been free, considering that the network effect was a huge price in itself. The point is, I am yet to see anyone who can afford a monthly data pack interested in choosing a service based upon it's inclusion in free basics. Free basics is good for those who won't use the internet at all otherwise.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#55

Post by enitihas » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 1:09 PM UTC

captn3m0 wrote: post #51

magic_man wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you never use these free AOL CDs when you were a kid. Yes they did provide access to the entire internet, but it was designed to get people to use AOL. I am not going to complain about free internet even if it is walled.

I'm going to copy-paste from a comment on mine from 6 months back[0]: As an Indian, believe me when I say this: "We already have good internet". Our data rates are extremely cheap. I paid less than 1 INR per day (it costs more to get a cup of coffee, which costs around 5-10 bucks) while using Opera Mini on a Nokia dumbphone. India has progressed beyond the point where rich corporations need to help our country. We ha…

Curious. Which Internet pack did you use which cost less than 1 INR per day? I too used to rely exclusively on Opera Mini in the past but never found rates so cheap.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#56

Post by Grue3 » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 1:38 PM UTC

Privileged people with Internet complaining that people without Internet access get free access to (some part of) the Internet. What are you doing to provide free Internet access to the poor?

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#57

Post by shubhamjain » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #56

Privileged people with Internet complaining that people without Internet access get free access to (some part of) the Internet. What are you doing to provide free Internet access to the poor?

Privileged people complain because a pure business move is being fed to the less-aware as a huge philanthropic effort.

Having been to many villages, I can say without doubt that so called free-internet will hardly bring any improvement in people's lives. How do you except a person who hardly knows how to use a phone to use the internet productively? No doubt, information access is important for human development but sorry, I don't have a reason to believe people who can put Internet to a good purpose will have any trouble paying for it.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#58

Post by Grue3 » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 2:49 PM UTC

shubhamjain wrote: post #57

Grue3 wrote: post #56

Privileged people with Internet complaining that people without Internet access get free access to (some part of) the Internet. What are you doing to provide free Internet access to the poor?

Privileged people complain because a pure business move is being fed to the less-aware as a huge philanthropic effort. Having been to many villages, I can say without doubt that so called free-internet will hardly bring any improvement in people's lives. How do you except a person who hardly knows how to use a phone to use the internet productively? No doubt, information access is important for human development but…

The most famous scientist in my country [1] had to travel 1000 km on foot from his home village to university to get decent education. He then proceeded to make a lot of important discoveries in many areas of science. Now imagine if we had Wikipedia in every village. Imagine how many more people could make use of their talents if they had access to the basic information to get them started.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Lomonosov

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#59

Post by abhaga » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 5:05 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #54

abhaga wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are assuming that the other services can just wait it out while people break out of FB ecosystem and discover them. Development of these kind of walled gardens significantly harm the development of independent services. That is one of the main problem. If everyone had free Orkut and no access to FB, how long would it have taken Facebook to catch on?

I am not assuming anything. People who don't have internt access are not using those service anyways. So those services will continue at their natural pace. So I don't see how free basics will harm the development of independent services. Regarding Orkut, it had a lot of users before facebook arrived on the scene. But Facebook was just so much better that everyone eventually jumped on it. I doubt the outcome would ha…

In the FB vs Orkut example, not only is the Orkut Free, FB is inaccessible to Orkut users. What do you think will be the outcome then?

You are also assuming that if not for Free Basics, there will be nothing done to increase the internet spread in India. As those opposed to Free Basics have repeatedly pointed out, there are other better options available.

Re: Facebook’s “Save Free Basics in India” Campaign Provokes Controversy

#60

Post by nitrogen » Tue, Dec 22, 2015, 5:47 PM UTC

enitihas wrote: post #23

nitrogen wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little good now at the expense of a significant amount of future opportunity. In established markets this is called "dumping" -- giving something away to destroy competition.

I don't think there is any loss of significant future opportunity. When someone will be able to afford the Internet, they will start using whichever service they find fit. Till then for those people, I can't overstate how important free access to even this limited Internet is. Even free access to wikipedia and facebook helps a lot of people in a lot of ways. Fun Story: One day I was with the brother of a friend of mi…

Facebook could make all this opposition evaporate by changing from a fixed service model to a fixed bandwidth model open to all services. I'm not trying to keep people from getting their first access to the Internet, I'm trying to keep corporations from creating a permanent tier of second-class locked-in customers.