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Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

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Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#191

Post by anonbanker »

stcredzero wrote: post #156
djsumdog wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like you're missing the point of the GNU GPL. The original idea behind the FSFs idea of open source was an ecosystem where every new development resulted in more open and free code. We're talking about people who truly believed in getting away from commercial software entirely. There were people who felt that one day, Linux desktops could replace Windows and even high end tools like Photoshop and Final Cut wou…

The original idea behind the FSFs idea of open source was an ecosystem where every new development resulted in more open and free code. So let's put it this way: The FSF didn't pivot when they had a chance to capture a larger market!

only on hacker news would someone spell "pivot", but pronounce it "sell out".

I'll bask in the downvotes that comes with telling the harsh truth. I got karma to burn, folks.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#192

Post by Narishma »

jevinskie wrote: post #132
kevinchen wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ran the program with some slight modifications and couldn't reproduce it #include #include int main(int c, char **v) { std::stringstream s("1.5"); double x; s >> x; return x == 1.5 ? 0 : 1; } Apple LLVM version 7.0.2 (clang-700.1.81) Target: x86_64-apple-darwin15.2.0 Thread model: posix

I'd be wary of concluding that "if it works on Apple Clang, it will work on all Clangs". I've seen this to be untrue in multiple cases and the root cause can be found in a multitude of locations. LLVM, Clang, libc (glibc, musl, MSVC, Apple libC,), C++ STL (libstdc++, libc++, MSVC), compiler-rt, platform ABI (Apple ABI's are pretty much SysV, except when they aren't...), and of course the actual version/branch of all…

Just tried it with clang 3.6 on Linux and couldn't reproduce it either.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#193

Post by jmgao »

msbarnett wrote: post #123
duaneb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an actual response? How is iostream any better than *printf? At least you can read the format of the former without needing to google un-googleable operators.

> How is iostream any better than *printf? Type checking.

printf has type checking in every major compiler. You just need to annotate all of your printf-y functions with attributes to tell the compiler "this function does printf, the format string is the nth argument, and the format arguments start at the mth argument".

It doesn't work with non-constexpr format strings, but there aren't many justifications for those.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#194

Post by slavik81 »

simoncion wrote: post #124
duaneb wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have an actual response? How is iostream any better than *printf? At least you can read the format of the former without needing to google un-googleable operators.

> How is iostream any better than [ ]printf? What consistent mechanism do you use to printf an instance of an arbitrary user-defined type? With ostream, you implement ostream& operator and you're done. with printf, you have to have a convention and remember to stick to it. (Do I call .toString(), .stringize(), .getString()... ??) For one-off things, printf is great . You take it from me when you pry it from my goddam…

I find that how I print my data changes depending on why I'm printing, making a convention necessary anyways. Is the ostream overload the user-visible format, the test-failure format, or the serialization format?

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#195

Post by pekk »

geofft wrote: post #185
carapace wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Stallman, however, is correct. (I'm going to get that on a t-shirt, printed in block letters: "Stallman is correct.")

Isn't the argument above that he was wrong? He may have been morally right that free software is an inherent good over proprietary software, but that's sort of a given for this discussion. He was tactically wrong in taking an expansive view of both what free software licenses should enforce and what fell within their realm of enforcement. He was hoping that GCC would be so much better than the competition that people…

If Apple takes a stance against GPL because they don't perceive it as in their commercial best interest, that doesn't mean Stallman was wrong even in a 'tactical' sense.

You can't do anything about haters.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#196

Post by pekk »

dman wrote: post #149
JoshTriplett wrote: post #67

The sad thing is that "easy to link and embed" and "permissive license" really didn't have to go together like they did in LLVM. GCC could have provided a library that made it easy to do code generation or compiler development. That library could still have used the GPL, so that only Free Software could use it. Some of the work that has happened around LLVM wouldn't have happened around such a library, but some of it…

The FSF ideology was born at a time where the level of bidirectional mistrust between closed source software vendors and open source advocates was a lot higher than it is currently. The world has evolved since then and the business world now embraces open source, possibly for reasons that have nothing to do with ideology (shared r&d costs, commoditising lower layers of the stack and the realization that you can just…

The dangers that befell things like the Gosling Emacs code, which informed GPL and FSF, haven't gone away. Companies like Apple are actively working to erode any progress that has been made on this front because of their intense levels of investment in proprietary lockin.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#197

Post by techdragon »

geofft wrote: post #185
carapace wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Stallman, however, is correct. (I'm going to get that on a t-shirt, printed in block letters: "Stallman is correct.")

Isn't the argument above that he was wrong? He may have been morally right that free software is an inherent good over proprietary software, but that's sort of a given for this discussion. He was tactically wrong in taking an expansive view of both what free software licenses should enforce and what fell within their realm of enforcement. He was hoping that GCC would be so much better than the competition that people…

Morality is a hard thing to pin down. See the trolley problem if anyone reading this things morals are black and white.

It's much easier to compare them philosophically.

Commercial/ Proprietary - unrestricted free market capitalism

Copyleft licenses - socialist (not communist, there's a difference people, learn it) / commercial cooperative (think farmers cooperatives and anyone who might use a .coop domain)

Permissive licenses - various anarchistic philosophical positions

Market anarchism is much more compatible with existing corporate dynamics so it's pretty easy to see why it's trending this way.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#198

Post by dman »

pekk wrote: post #196
dman wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FSF ideology was born at a time where the level of bidirectional mistrust between closed source software vendors and open source advocates was a lot higher than it is currently. The world has evolved since then and the business world now embraces open source, possibly for reasons that have nothing to do with ideology (shared r&d costs, commoditising lower layers of the stack and the realization that you can just…

The dangers that befell things like the Gosling Emacs code, which informed GPL and FSF, haven't gone away. Companies like Apple are actively working to erode any progress that has been made on this front because of their intense levels of investment in proprietary lockin.

Indeed. Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#199

Post by spiralpolitik »

pekk wrote: post #196
dman wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The FSF ideology was born at a time where the level of bidirectional mistrust between closed source software vendors and open source advocates was a lot higher than it is currently. The world has evolved since then and the business world now embraces open source, possibly for reasons that have nothing to do with ideology (shared r&d costs, commoditising lower layers of the stack and the realization that you can just…

The dangers that befell things like the Gosling Emacs code, which informed GPL and FSF, haven't gone away. Companies like Apple are actively working to erode any progress that has been made on this front because of their intense levels of investment in proprietary lockin.

Yes they were so actively working to erode progress that they offered to license LLVM under the GPL. But because RMS uses an e-mail client written in the last century he missed the offer.

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-02/msg00...

Re: Android NDK: GCC is now deprecated, everyone should be switching to Clang

#200

Post by pvg »

mahouse wrote: post #52
pvg wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you've now derailed the entire thread with unrelated drama-mongering.

What thread? The technical part of this is largely irrelevant, it's the subsequent discussion about politics what is interesting.

I think you've succinctly described "how good forums die".
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