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The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

theneurosphere.com

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Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#31
post #28
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual violet (like UV LED or mercury lamp) should stimulate almost exclusively S cones. But it turns out that if you take blue, which stimulates M and L more than violet, and then add even more L stimulation, you end up with something that "feels" more violet than blue (at least to me). This is what bothers me. It looks like two distinct inputs producing the same output, even though there exists an intermediate inpu…

Two distinct inputs producing the same output is metamery. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color) . Without it, color printing and color televisions would be way harder to create.

You aren't paying attention, by "inputs" I meant "inputs from retina to the nervous system", not "inputs to the eye".

Most metamerism can be trivially explained by different combinations of light stimulating cones in the same way. But it looks like red+blue and violet are different and there is just no reason for them to be perceived the same, except that apparently there is also no reason to distinguish between them.

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#32

I learned the importance of trichromacy when a friend and I came across a patch of wild strawberries. I'm partially red-green colorblind and for every strawberry I found, my friend found ten. They were almost invisible to me. It's neat to see that the fourth cone's response curve peaks right between the red and green cones' curves in tetrachromats. I bet they are amazing at finding berries.

What does it mean to be partially red-green colobrlind? Isn't it the case that you either have the red-green cone or you don't?

I don't know how it works, but I have it - I can see red and green and pink in big blobs, but when there's lots of small red and green (or pink) details mixed - they seem the same to me (if their darkness is similar).

Also I have problems with big uniform colour areas it there's small amount of green mixed with pink or red and vice-versa. I was making a sunset skybox for a game, and friends were wondering why the sky is slightly green - for me it was pinkish-red-yellow, but I put there some green by mistake.

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#33
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two distinct inputs producing the same output is metamery. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamerism_(color) . Without it, color printing and color televisions would be way harder to create.

You aren't paying attention, by "inputs" I meant "inputs from retina to the nervous system", not "inputs to the eye". Most metamerism can be trivially explained by different combinations of light stimulating cones in the same way. But it looks like red+blue and violet are different and there is just no reason for them to be perceived the same, except that apparently there is also no reason to distinguish between them…

The sensitivity of the red cones appears to go up near violet (http://www.yorku.ca/eye/specsens.htm)

Wikipedia claims that is because of "a second resonancy of the red-sensitive cone cells." (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_light)

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#34
post #33
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't paying attention, by "inputs" I meant "inputs from retina to the nervous system", not "inputs to the eye". Most metamerism can be trivially explained by different combinations of light stimulating cones in the same way. But it looks like red+blue and violet are different and there is just no reason for them to be perceived the same, except that apparently there is also no reason to distinguish between them…

The sensitivity of the red cones appears to go up near violet ( http://www.yorku.ca/eye/specsens.htm ) Wikipedia claims that is because of "a second resonancy of the red-sensitive cone cells." ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_light )

Well, this finally makes sense.

None of the red cone sensitivity plots I've seen previously showed secondary peak, but that's because they were always cut somewhere in the blue region.

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#35
post #7

Scientists are looking at direct delivery of gene therapy to retinal cells to cure serious eye diseases like macular degeneration, pigmentosa blindness, etc. Should this work well, then the next step would be lesser conditions like male color blindness. I read of some successful attempts to give dicromatic animals, genrally carnovoires, the trichromatic gene directly to the retina. These subjects can be tested by giv…

> The next step, more controversial, would be super-vision of tetrachromacity, perhaps infra-red and ultra-violet sensitivity. Night vision glasses no longer needed for enhanced soldiers. Utter poppycock. The cornea and lens in humans are UV opaque, which is a very good thing because UV light is damaging. People without a lens (aphakia) are reported to perceive UV light, but this is otherwise an undesirable condition…

The natural human cornea is opaque to shorter-wavelength UV, but there's no reason it couldn't be replaced with something transparent to UV-A at least. This is supposedly an unintended side-effect of some cornea replacement surgery[1].

UV may have the potential to be damaging, but plenty of animals see UV-A safely - for example, bees[2] and mantis shrimp[3] can perceive UV to 300nm. Some birds (whose eyes are much more like ours, of course) can also perceive UV[4][5].

If we wanted some ready-made genes, I vote for borrowing from the European starling, which has receptors that sit in our enormous gap between blue/violet and green as well as UV-A [6].

Near infrared could be very useful, because (in combination with red, green, etc.) it can be used to easily distinguish vegetation, and it scatters less in the atmosphere, so it could allow clear vision at much farther distances. Most materials that are transparent to red/green/blue are also transparent to NIR, so as far as I know, the rest of the eye shouldn't need to be modified.

Most people can apparently see a little bit into the NIR if they wear NIR-bandpass goggles, but it's extremely dim and doesn't have a perceived colour that's distinct from the rest of the visible spectrum, so that's not really what the GP is suggesting. They're suggesting wiring up a true NIR-specific receptor in the eye which would provide a fourth, fifth, or sixth primary colour (in addition to red, green, blue, and optionally the in-between-red-and-green that tetrachromats see as well as a hypothetical UV-A receptor).

I can't find a cite at the moment, but some birds have NIR patterning on their feathers (I have photographed this myself at a zoo), and the last time I looked into it, there was some speculation that tropical birds in particular had some NIR sensitivity (in addition to UV-A) and had evolved spectrally-complex colouration as a result.

Thermal infrared is a much longer wavelength, and I'm not aware of a good material for lenses/eyes that is transparent to both. It's possible to have an uncooled sensor that detects it, but I agree that it's a much larger leap than UV-A or NIR.

[1] http://www.itworld.com/article/2732596/consumer-tech-science...

[2] https://www.agriculture.purdue.edu/agcomm/newscolumns/archiv...

[3] http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/mantis-shrimp-s...

[4] http://www.livescience.com/26994-how-birds-uv-vision.html

[5] http://www.webexhibits.org/causesofcolor/17B.html

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#36
post #30
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And your tepid comments are just as useless.

scott_s was right, because the GP broke the HN guidelines by name-calling (in an otherwise fine comment). Your comment does too. Please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Honestly, if this were reddit I would have deleted the entire post when scott_s pointed out it was harsh; it was hastily written in a moment of supreme frustration. Sorry!

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#37
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

scott_s was right, because the GP broke the HN guidelines by name-calling (in an otherwise fine comment). Your comment does too. Please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Honestly, if this were reddit I would have deleted the entire post when scott_s pointed out it was harsh; it was hastily written in a moment of supreme frustration. Sorry!

The reason I commented is that the rest of your comment was excellent, and very informative. (I did not know our cornea and lens are UV opaque. And then the subsequent follow-ups to your point, explaining that it's more subtle than that by nl and blincoln, were also very interesting.) Your knowledge of the subject and willingness to explain it indicates to me that you're valuable to the HN community. So I felt it was worthwhile to point out the one bit of your comment which doesn't work well on HN, since your account is new.

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#38
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The next step, more controversial, would be super-vision of tetrachromacity, perhaps infra-red and ultra-violet sensitivity. Night vision glasses no longer needed for enhanced soldiers. Utter poppycock. The cornea and lens in humans are UV opaque, which is a very good thing because UV light is damaging. People without a lens (aphakia) are reported to perceive UV light, but this is otherwise an undesirable condition…

Utter poppycock. That seems... strong, especially if referring to the "Night vision glasses no longer needed for enhanced soldiers" bit. They eventually formulate a chlorin e6 solution for human use. A few drops are dripped into Licina’s eyes, and they had him look for people hidden among trees as well as symbols on objects in dim light. Licina seemed to perform a lot better than the four other people who did not get…

My frustration was more directed towards the UV-Vis-NIR part (and I read night vision as thermal IR, but who knows), but I wouldn't say that your linked article is something of substance. To quote the article, quoting the experimenter/ee, "In Licina’s own words: 'Let’s be fair here. It’s kind of crap science.'"

I wouldn't even know where to begin in criticizing their study as disseminated on their website except to say it is completely unscientific. There are no proper controls, for one. I think it's wholly irresponsible of the press to report on this work in this fashion at such a premature stage. I respect the enthusiasm of the citizen science crowd and think it's a neat idea, but stuff like this is going to quickly earn it a very bad reputation.

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The next step, more controversial, would be super-vision of tetrachromacity, perhaps infra-red and ultra-violet sensitivity. Night vision glasses no longer needed for enhanced soldiers. Utter poppycock. The cornea and lens in humans are UV opaque, which is a very good thing because UV light is damaging. People without a lens (aphakia) are reported to perceive UV light, but this is otherwise an undesirable condition…

The natural human cornea is opaque to shorter-wavelength UV, but there's no reason it couldn't be replaced with something transparent to UV-A at least. This is supposedly an unintended side-effect of some cornea replacement surgery[1]. UV may have the potential to be damaging, but plenty of animals see UV-A safely - for example, bees[2] and mantis shrimp[3] can perceive UV to 300nm. Some birds (whose eyes are much mo…

If it's okay, I think we should set the non-vertabrates aside for the discussion since their optical systems are so different.

As to the safety of UV-A, I don't think you're correct. A common element of all the comparative species selected is that their life span in the wild is far shorter than our own, and there isn't going to be selection pressure happening before they would accumulate UV damage. UV damage to the eye is kind of like yellowing of plastics, it accumulates over time. As is pointed out in your first linked article, aphakia patients are advised to wear blue-blocking glasses to protect their vision. My first thought as to how bad could it be was retinoblastoma—I am not aware of any studies looking at the incidence rate of Rb in aphakia patients and PubMed doesn't show anything either, but I don't think it's an unreasonable thought.

Aside from the ionization problem, UV light also has a much higher propensity towards scatter. Floaters are bad enough for some in visible light! Of course, we're talking futuristic gene augmentation, so it's not unreasonable to suggest we'd vacuum the eyes out every now and then, so maybe floaters will not be a problem :) We still have a problem with the much higher dispersion of UV light relative to visible, given the materials we have to work with in the eye; that, plus scatter, means we're probably going to have very fuzzy UV vision. Replace the whole lens system and maybe you get better UV-vis vision, but we still haven't overcome the safety problem. Maybe instead of vacuuming out the eyes, we just swap them out for a new autologous gene-tweaked set every couple years.

NIR would seem to be more realistic than UV (certainly considering safety), but here, the quantum efficiency of the pigments would seem to be a limiting factor. As you point out, we can already actually see a little into NIR (IIRC, in scotopic with something like 10-6 QE at 750nm relative to 555nm). At first glance, the chemical structure of human receptor pigments doesn't look to be super favorable for modification to getting something that would have a good absorption cross-section in NIR. Compare the structure of vitamin A or retinal with a strongly NIR-active chromophore, there's a lot of steps bridging the two and the structure as a whole is hostile towards selective modifications, not to speak of the rings where the modifications need to happen.

As to thermal IR, I think we'd need a metamaterial for something that would work in vis and in LWIR, and that's a handwavey statement on my part. It would definitely be of interest to the military!

Overall, I think it's more plausible to augment our vision by wiring a camera directly into our visual cortex. Biology is too hard.

Re: The Mystery of Tetrachromacy

#40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, if this were reddit I would have deleted the entire post when scott_s pointed out it was harsh; it was hastily written in a moment of supreme frustration. Sorry!

The reason I commented is that the rest of your comment was excellent, and very informative. (I did not know our cornea and lens are UV opaque. And then the subsequent follow-ups to your point, explaining that it's more subtle than that by nl and blincoln, were also very interesting.) Your knowledge of the subject and willingness to explain it indicates to me that you're valuable to the HN community. So I felt it was…

> Your knowledge of the subject and willingness to explain it indicates to me that you're valuable to the HN community.

You're too charitable. The truth is I'm unemployed at what feels to be a particularly bad time of the year to be unemployed (think of all the family and friends get-togethers… "so, what do you do?"), and I'm bludgeoning people on the internet with domain knowledge in some lame effort to stroke ego rather than facing a bleak job market for someone of my background. It's a harsh toke, but admitting it (even pseudononymously) is the only way I'm going to do anything about it.

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