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Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

quantamagazine.org

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Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#31
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with your point, but I think the "picture of atoms" is not a good supporting argument. The IBM image[1] is nothing more than a visualization of measurements including a good measure of artistic license. It has not much to do with seeing in the usual sense. [1] http://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-flinte/...

Every picture is a visualization of measurements.

This should be a quote.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#32

Nowadays, as several philosophers at the workshop said, Popperian falsificationism has been supplanted by Bayesian confirmation theory, or Bayesianism, a modern framework based on the 18th-century probability theory of the English statistician and minister Thomas Bayes. Bayesianism allows for the fact that modern scientific theories typically make claims far beyond what can be directly observed — no one has ever seen…

Yes. It's a fairly natural outgrowth of falsification based theories, and is in fact completely necessary. Consider a simple theory - bear attacks will be very low in the UK forever. Consider an alternate theory - bear attacks will be low until 2016 and then the bearpocalypse happens. Both theories have passed all attempts at falsification - they both accurately predict that bears haven't so far eaten very few people…

> The Bayesian approach is to assign a prior distribution to various theories of this nature. Because there are infinitely many possible priors, most exceedingly complicated (because the set of priors of complexity I don't think this would be a very compelling argument for Occam's razor if you didn't already believe it. This argument says you can't assign high probability to all "complex" theories, but it doesn't seem to say that the high probability theories must be simple. You could use any criterion at all to single out a high probability subset.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#33
post #30
post #15

Physics used to be "hard science" - if it wasn't testable, it wasn't meaningful. Physicists used to look down on other sciences for that reason. This article shows how much worse things have become. Nobody can figure out a way to test string theory. In cosmology, you can only observe, not experiment. As the article points out, the big questions are out of reach for scaling reasons. Trying to fix the problem through w…

> Physics used to be "hard science" - Physics is still a hard science. However, the edges of physics are difficult to test. > In cosmology, you can only observe, not experiment Saying that is like saying "we don't know evolution is true, because we don't see new species evolve every day". It's a naive approach to science. In both cases, you can use theories to make predictions about new things to look for. e.g. http:…

The NFL is funded because it provides entertainment, and we all know how well that sells.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#34
We had a rush of scientific breakthroughs 100 years ago. I believe we will have more.

That experimentation in physics has slowed down to 18th century levels doesn't mean science is over, it just means the low-hanging fruit is over and we will have to continue slogging through theory before we discover new experiments.

Science has always relied on philosophy for its underlying direction, it's just obvious again. It took 2040 years before science/math could answer Zeno's paradoxes. If you can't handle the slog you're not really a scientist, you're a technician.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#35
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fully agree with your point, but I think the "picture of atoms" is not a good supporting argument. The IBM image[1] is nothing more than a visualization of measurements including a good measure of artistic license. It has not much to do with seeing in the usual sense. [1] http://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-flinte/...

Every picture is a visualization of measurements.

Worse, by his definition of "see", one might as well say no one has ever seen the wind.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#36
"Massimo Pigliucci, a philosopher at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, pointed out that falsifiability is woefully inadequate as a separator of science and nonscience, as Popper himself recognized. Astrology, for instance, is falsifiable — indeed, it has been falsified ad nauseam — and yet it isn’t science."

You could say the same for phlogiston or N-rays. Falsifiable hypotheses that actually get falsified are dropped from science, but the process of falsifying them is a scientific activity.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#37
post #15

Physics used to be "hard science" - if it wasn't testable, it wasn't meaningful. Physicists used to look down on other sciences for that reason. This article shows how much worse things have become. Nobody can figure out a way to test string theory. In cosmology, you can only observe, not experiment. As the article points out, the big questions are out of reach for scaling reasons. Trying to fix the problem through w…

I fully agree with your point, but I think the "picture of atoms" is not a good supporting argument. The IBM image[1] is nothing more than a visualization of measurements including a good measure of artistic license. It has not much to do with seeing in the usual sense. [1] http://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-flinte/...

People do take photographs of single atoms. It requires a very colorful atom and a very bright flash, but both those things exist. They're not particularly interesting photographs: atoms are smaller than a light wavelength and they look like dots. I've seen them before, although I couldn't find one in a minute of Googling. There are even movies, as described in this paper:

http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.36788

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#38
post #15

Physics used to be "hard science" - if it wasn't testable, it wasn't meaningful. Physicists used to look down on other sciences for that reason. This article shows how much worse things have become. Nobody can figure out a way to test string theory. In cosmology, you can only observe, not experiment. As the article points out, the big questions are out of reach for scaling reasons. Trying to fix the problem through w…

> Physicists used to look down on other sciences for that reason.

Rumors say that the more practical physicists have always been looking down on cosmologists for the same reason.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#39
post #10
post #2

If it is not testable, it does not sound like physics to me. Physics is an empirical science, and should therefore be testable by definition.

What do you mean by "testable"? There's a pretty big spectrum of "untestable" ranging from requiring too many trillions of dollars to requiring more resources than this planet has to requiring equipment or energy levels we don't know how to produce even in theory to requiring stuff we're pretty sure is impossible like looking beyond the range of the observable universe or requiring more energy than is contained in th…

> And at what point in its development and study do you abandon a theory that nobody has yet invented a way to test?

Perhaps a better question is at what point does philosophy become physics? Finding a way to test the theory, and doing so, may be such a point.

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