The best icon is a text label • Hacker News Board

Re: The best icon is a text label

#201

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 10:31 PM UTC

ploxiln wrote: post #62

dizzystar wrote: post #27

I remember getting into a debate about this subject with a self-described UI expert. It was part enlightening and part frustrating. He failed to see the point that so many of his ideas were US-centric, and didn't make sense in any context outside of English-speaking languages, and to be honest, they barely made sense in English. The author brings up Gmail, which has an icon for "archive" that makes zero sense no matt…

I don't think this is "zero empathy for the end-user", I think this is desperation. As companies and "product managers" get more statistical data on real-world clicks and usage and do more usability studies, they see that 90% of users don't know how to do anything. And they get desperate to "fix" that. They go for drastic re-designs, get rid of all the text because "nobody" reads it, hide all the features because the…

I'm inclined to declare ploxiln's Law of Negative Usability Cascades.

This dynamic does seem to strongly reflect how marginal UIs get progressively worse.

Don't design for idiots.

Oh: and there's some truth in the observation that 90% users don't know how to do anything. People are far less rational and sensate than we typically believe.

P.T. Barnum had something to say on that.

Re: The best icon is a text label

#202

Post by OJFord » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 10:57 PM UTC

OJFord wrote: post #172

> Facebook as a final example: they lately traded their > unclear hamburger menu icon for a frictionless navigation > that combines icons with clear copy. Well done No, not well done. They went from almost conforming to the OS' (on Android) design guidelines, to totally ignoring them. The 'hamburger' button is not "unclear", because it's so commonplace that at the very least it has an intuitive meaning in the context…

This comment has been unexpectedly contentious - points have been going up and down in about equal amounts (currently 0) - but nobody wants to comment on why they disagree?

Re: The best icon is a text label

#203

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 11:36 PM UTC

on_and_off wrote: post #153

frik wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UI usage statistics are often biased (power user deactivate tracking). A/B testing and watching real end users using your product is better.

>power user deactivate tracking Is that a thing ? I can't speak in general but I know that for the large mobile app I am working on, we are slowly migrating to our own solution and I highly doubt that users could deactivate it.

Most users don't change any settings. Which is why you want sane defaults. I first realised this (very much to my chagrin) when screen-resolution settings were first reported via JS. It was obvious (from the low and poor values selected) that the vast majority of users, under Windows, never right-clicked their desktop and tweaked display settings (800x600 @60Hz on CRTs, or worse, being the most common values).

The only users who (in significant number) change settings are power users. A small minority in any regard, but also the ones who then are more likely to defeat various tracking and feedback systems -- disabling feedback or preemptively blocking sites and systems which profile system performance, including Google Analytics, New Relic, etc.

Yes, if you can instrument within your tool (Web page, app) for response, great, but that's More Work For You, so it's far too easy to fall back on standard services. Which your best users are most likely to block....

Re: The best icon is a text label

#204

Post by dredmorbius » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 11:41 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #59

dizzystar wrote: post #27

I remember getting into a debate about this subject with a self-described UI expert. It was part enlightening and part frustrating. He failed to see the point that so many of his ideas were US-centric, and didn't make sense in any context outside of English-speaking languages, and to be honest, they barely made sense in English. The author brings up Gmail, which has an icon for "archive" that makes zero sense no matt…

> "UI, in my opinion, doesn't mean "pretty," it means "usable," which is sort of implied by U meaning "user."" In frontend land this is often the distinction between UI vs. UX. UX means usability, UI is the more aesthetic side of the exercise, though of course there is considerable overlap. Part of the issue - at least from my corner of the industry in mobile app dev - is that a lot of good UI designers have renamed…

Your understanding of UI/UX doesn't match mine.

"UI" is the user interface. It's the facility through which the user interacts with a tool -- both receiving information and inputting their own responses.

"UX" is the user experience, which is the totality of the user's interaction with the tool. Not just how it looks, but inclusive of goals, success or failure in accomplishing them, frustrations or joys in the process.

https://m.fastcompany.com/3032719/ui-ux-who-does-what-a-desi...

Re: The best icon is a text label

#205

Post by gnaritas » Sun, Dec 20, 2015, 2:20 AM UTC

brenschluss wrote: post #17

> Don’t use an icon if its meaning isn’t a 100% clear to everyone. When in doubt, skip the icon. Reside to simple copy. A text label is always clearer. The article is misguided, in that it assumes that the meaning of an icon only exists in the lines/color/visual form of the icon. Icons are visual language . You have to teach the user what the icon means. Either the user has seen the icon before (such as in airports),…

> Icons are visual language. You have to teach the user what the icon means.

Which is the first problem, we don't care, we don't want to learn your crappy custom little visual language. We already know how to read, use words.

> Once that happens, then icons are way faster.

That never usually happens; use words, icons suck and we're all tired of them. Works work better, we all know how to read and don't need you to "teach" us anything.

Re: The best icon is a text label

#206

Post by joelhumphrey » Sun, Dec 20, 2015, 4:48 AM UTC

aptwebapps wrote: post #151

Animats wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"My password manager fills out the registration form, of course, but it won't submit because it wants an email address, not a username." Big UI pain: sites that are not compatible with browser-stored login info.

My bank just broke compatibility with my password manager (could be the plugin's fault, I suppose) and another financial institution specifically told me that their site was not compatible with password managers. They have this 'nifty' feature which turns all but the last few chars of your username into stars on blur and I suspect they just didn't want to bother to do their js event handlers properly. Fortunately, it…

Even though the login behavior on a web app's home page can cause hiccups with password manager compatibility, the alternate login form on the "You are now logged out" page is usually barebones enough to be compatible.

Compare the login forms for Verizon Wireless:

Home page - https://www.verizonwireless.com (upper right corner)

Logged out page - https://login.vzw.com/cdsso/public/c/logout

Tweaking your password manager settings to log you in through a site's logged out page can often bypass the compatibility headaches.

Using 1Password's Chrome extension, this trick has worked for me so far, although your mileage may vary.

Re: The best icon is a text label

#207

Post by aptwebapps » Sun, Dec 20, 2015, 5:32 AM UTC

joelhumphrey wrote: post #206

aptwebapps wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My bank just broke compatibility with my password manager (could be the plugin's fault, I suppose) and another financial institution specifically told me that their site was not compatible with password managers. They have this 'nifty' feature which turns all but the last few chars of your username into stars on blur and I suspect they just didn't want to bother to do their js event handlers properly. Fortunately, it…

Even though the login behavior on a web app's home page can cause hiccups with password manager compatibility, the alternate login form on the "You are now logged out" page is usually barebones enough to be compatible. Compare the login forms for Verizon Wireless: Home page - https://www.verizonwireless.com (upper right corner) Logged out page - https://login.vzw.com/cdsso/public/c/logout Tweaking your password manag…

I used to use that method for the one that "didn't support password managers" before figuring out the click dance. Just tried with my main bank and they don't have a login form on the logout page.

Re: The best icon is a text label

#208

Post by fanf2 » Sun, Dec 20, 2015, 12:24 PM UTC

herval wrote: post #159

js8 wrote: post #154

I think we forgot many of the lessons from the 90s, in naive attempt to emulate Apple. Here's list of standard things that every application in the 90s had, that are frequently missing from the current UIs: - Menu - Typically at the top of the screen or window, you can go there and find everything you can do with the application, at the consistent place; moreover, as you go over menu entries, an helpful explanation w…

While some of these are obvious - removing borders from buttons on iOS made everyone confused, in my personal observation - others are not necessarily "a naive attempt to emulate Apple". Eg.: you can't have (useful|easy to figure out) tooltips or "right click" on touchscreen devices.

A long touch often brings up an explanation and/or context menu on iOS. Not very fast, but it does the job...

Re: The best icon is a text label

#209

Post by jakub_g » Sun, Dec 20, 2015, 1:47 PM UTC

ploxiln wrote: post #62

dizzystar wrote: post #27

I remember getting into a debate about this subject with a self-described UI expert. It was part enlightening and part frustrating. He failed to see the point that so many of his ideas were US-centric, and didn't make sense in any context outside of English-speaking languages, and to be honest, they barely made sense in English. The author brings up Gmail, which has an icon for "archive" that makes zero sense no matt…

I don't think this is "zero empathy for the end-user", I think this is desperation. As companies and "product managers" get more statistical data on real-world clicks and usage and do more usability studies, they see that 90% of users don't know how to do anything. And they get desperate to "fix" that. They go for drastic re-designs, get rid of all the text because "nobody" reads it, hide all the features because the…

My bank did a redesign 3-4 years ago, replacing labels with icons. To do anything, even now, I keep clicking the stupid icons until I land on the proper page.

Re: The best icon is a text label

#210

Post by Retra » Sun, Dec 20, 2015, 4:59 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #81

com2kid wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You have to teach the user what the icon means. Recognition speed presumably goes up with familiarity. I have Age - 6 years of experience reading, I have far less than that with whatever icon you come up with. Let's take starting an app as an example. On my Smartphone I use the email client "Nine". I probably open up the app manually (versus tapping on a notification) about 5 or 6 times a day. It took me ~3-5 month…

> character recognition is so incredibly trained in our heads that it should be our go to. This is also a problem. You cant avoid reading text when its presented to you, so extra text makes the page cluttery, and hard to find the text you really want to read. It is very useful to replace an ever same-looking label for an recognizable icon (Like "Close", "Open", "Save" etc).

I don't think you're correct. Yes, you can't avoid reading text, but you spend far less effort reading it than you would trying to decipher icons, which you also can't avoid doing if you want to know how to use the program.