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Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

nautil.us

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Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#141

Post by kafkaesq »

DanBC wrote: post #140
kafkaesq wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(And here rates are provided in X per 100,000) I'm not playing this game with you. Obviously, the information wouldn't expressed that way in the WP article. You may recall that they're a newspaper, not a scholarly journal. So you know perfectly well that it wouldn't have expressed the information in those terms. The article does mention exactly what the increase is. As to the base rate, the WP article doesn't use tha…

You start by saying they give all the details. Now you say that it didn't give the information. Do you at least agree that the article doesn't explain what the quoted 87% increase means in a way the readership is going to understand? Can you explain what that 87% increase means? The article had almost no relevance to this thread; it was dumped here as yet more pill-shaming bollocks; it targets a group who already hav…

You start by saying they give all the details.

That's not what I said. It's basically the opposite of what I said. In my initial response to you, what I was basically saying was that the article presented the key upshot of the researchers' findings, without echoing all the details. That is, it wasn't anything like the FUD piece you were making it out to be.

Do you at least agree that the article doesn't explain what the quoted 87% increase means in a way the readership is going to understand?

No. It's very clear, from my reading. I'll agree that not every reader is going to understand it, but anyone with say, median freshman-level skills in reading comprehension ought to be able to understand it.

Can you explain what that 87% increase means?

Yes. But I'm not going to do it for you.

The article had almost no relevance to this thread; it was dumped here as yet more pill-shaming bollocks;

It's fine if you want to think that. Doesn't seem relevant to what I was saying, though.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#142

Post by cpncrunch »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #133
isolate wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you have a psychotic disorder? Prevalence is ~3%.

Many drugs can precipitate a psychotic episode, including stimluants, psychedelics, even Alcohol. It's a risk you take when you take drugs but can be mitigated if you known what to expect and have support. Ketamine I don't think has a huge problem with this compared to other drugs. It may be a bit of a bizarre experience but not often a tramuatizing one.

I'm just not sure what the advantage is. I don't take alcohol, other than the occasional beer/wine, as I don't particularly like the effects. Same for smoking/caffeine/pot. I have much better experiences with real-life, such as flying planes, climbing mountains, etc. I understand LSD and ketamine are going to give a kind of the experience you can't get in real-life, but screwing around with your brain to achieve it doesn't really seem to be worth the risk IMO. I've managed to completely screw up my brain once in my life (severe suidical depression / CFS) without any help from any mind-altering substances, so to be honest I'm not really sure it's a good idea to be screwing around with your neurotransmitters like that. It's like trying to make your zx81 do something cool by randomly poking memory locations or wobbling the 16k RAM pack.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#143

Post by kstenerud »

emmelaich wrote: post #114
slapshot wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am close to somebody who has been strongly affected by depression. She has, in any material respect, a perfect life. She has food, clothes, a supportive family, a great job, plenty of money, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with her life. But she suffers off-and-on depression. Not just "I feel bad" depression. Crippling, "can't get out of bed" depression. Periodic suicidal ideation. Occasional suicide attempts. She kn…

I agree mostly, but how do you know for sure that there is some stress or thought there which is perhaps unacknowledged? I think that someone can be affected by somethings in their earlier life that can affect them forever. I'm not talk about repressed memories, I'm talking about the lack of positively formative experiences at critical moments of their life. Example - what happens when say someone starts school or is…

How do you know for sure that it's not something in the water?

How can you be sure it's not WiFi radio waves messing with her brain?

Can you really rule out space aliens trying to stop her from reaching her potential?

There's a reason we use the scientific method.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#144

Post by tedks »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #132
tedks wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She has, in any material respect, a perfect life. She has food, clothes, a supportive family, a great job, plenty of money, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with her life. Could it possibly be that there is more to life than these things?

Could be, but those things are the basics; lack of them is a cause of misery for people in today's society. Depression is something that makes you miserable even if all objective factors about your life are stable and comfortable.

>Depression is something that makes you miserable even if all objective factors about your life are stable and comfortable.

...could it be that there is more to life than these "objective factors"?

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#145

Post by curun1r »

spangry wrote: post #105
slapshot wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am close to somebody who has been strongly affected by depression. She has, in any material respect, a perfect life. She has food, clothes, a supportive family, a great job, plenty of money, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with her life. But she suffers off-and-on depression. Not just "I feel bad" depression. Crippling, "can't get out of bed" depression. Periodic suicidal ideation. Occasional suicide attempts. She kn…

I'm very much in this category of depression. I have what is unfortunately termed 'melancholic depression'. I should note that I'm very sceptical of the DSM 'disease model' of mental illness, and am glad to see psychiatry and neuroscience beginning to converge. 'Discrete disease' is a poor abstraction for most mental illnesses. A better term for my kind of depression would be 'endogenous depression' (i.e. depression…

Your description sounds pretty similar to my condition. I've tried SSRIs and they, to some extent, worked. But while they allowed me to reliably function, they caused a numbness in all non-physical sensations that made life seem meaningless, so I stopped taking them. What has worked a bit lately has been meditation. I'm starting to believe that my depression is caused by my mind not switching off properly and meditation is a sort of off switch. The nice part about meditation is there's really no down side and you don't really have to summon the energy to do it. If you're catatonic in a chair, just start focusing on your breath and trying to clear your mind of other thoughts.

I don't want to be preachy...one thing I've come to realize from many online discussions with other people suffering from depression is that almost every case is unique in some way and that the mental health community's efforts to try to group together what we're feeling into a single problem with prescribed courses of treatment is probably counterproductive. People believe that because they've experienced depression, either first- or second-hand, that they understand what all depression is like...astazangasta's comment is an example of this.

I try not to be one of those people, so what I'm offering is a suggestion, not an answer. My depression is by no means fixed, but meditation has helped me. It's one datapoint in case you want to try it.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#146

Post by tcj_phx »

olalonde wrote: post #112
tcj_phx wrote: post #19

Having observed my girlfriend's "mental illness" [1], I can say, with confidence, that Psychiatry is the problem with America's approach to mental health. As Dr. McHugh observes [2], conventional Psychiatrists "diagnose" their patients' symptoms, and treat the diagnosis without much concern about the actual causes thereof. One of my girlfriend's problems is that she has low energy levels - certainly caused by previou…

Has your girlfriend tried a ketogenic diet? A lot of people, myself included, report higher energy levels and loss of sugar cravings after just one or two weeks (could be placebo of course, there doesn't seem to be a scientific consensus).

She hasn't had much of a chance, these past few months. I try to get her to stay away from dietary biodiesel (aka vegetable oil).

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#147

Post by isolate »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #133
isolate wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you have a psychotic disorder? Prevalence is ~3%.

Many drugs can precipitate a psychotic episode, including stimluants, psychedelics, even Alcohol. It's a risk you take when you take drugs but can be mitigated if you known what to expect and have support. Ketamine I don't think has a huge problem with this compared to other drugs. It may be a bit of a bizarre experience but not often a tramuatizing one.

I mean if you already have a psychotic disorder, is it a good idea to experience the k-hole (high dose of ketamine)? With or without antipsychotics? What about a low dose?

For example, would you recommend that someone with schizophrenia try it?

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#148

Post by TeMPOraL »

tedks wrote: post #144
TeMPOraL wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could be, but those things are the basics; lack of them is a cause of misery for people in today's society. Depression is something that makes you miserable even if all objective factors about your life are stable and comfortable.

>Depression is something that makes you miserable even if all objective factors about your life are stable and comfortable. ...could it be that there is more to life than these "objective factors"?

Could be, but if you can figure out what exactly it is and how to package it nicely, then you'll become a billionaire overnight.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#149

Post by tedks »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #148
tedks wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Depression is something that makes you miserable even if all objective factors about your life are stable and comfortable. ...could it be that there is more to life than these "objective factors"?

Could be, but if you can figure out what exactly it is and how to package it nicely, then you'll become a billionaire overnight.

Could it perhaps be that there are things people need that can't be bought?

Hacker news is pretty depressing.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#150

Post by jgord »

sean-duffy wrote: post #69
jgord wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe its useful to discern between 'rational depression' and 'medical depression' .. by firstly labeling them as such ? I don't know how you'd differentiate between this formally, but it seems there is a massive difference - and they need different solutions. [ edit readability ]

I believe the medical terminology is exogenous and endogenous depression, where exogenous is due to external factors and endogenous is independent of them.

.. awareness of the distinction seems absent from the article, and from a lot of popular articles I've read.

My point is that it would help if this distinction permeated into the popular discourse on depression ...

[ Awareness of the distinction might make the general public more likely to question the morality of pumping up soldiers with anti-depressant drugs before they go into battle, for example ]

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