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My positive experience as a woman in tech

lea.verou.me

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Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#341

Post by Chris2048 »

burkaman wrote: post #338
Chris2048 wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prove me wrong, kids. Prove me wrong. :-)

Obviously I can't. I don't live in Europe, I don't have any statistics about sexism in technology, and I doubt such a thing is really quantifiable enough to get useful statistics. As far as Europe being "generally great", I can give you a few articles just to show that Europe has issues too. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/25/woman-s... http://valleywag.gawker.com/one-woman-finally-calls-out-a-te...…

A bunch of media articles?

Being easy to find doesn't mean this happens a lot, it means there's a market for this kind of content. The Guardian 'feminist' section is a good example of this.

I'm sure it's already been argued in this thread that maybe there are other factors that result in fewer women in IT. The Guardian article isn't a clear example of sexism in tech.

Also, the pc-gamer event has more to it (the original requirement hails from Korea), but in any case isn't related to sexism in the workplace.

I'd rather not comment further on the US.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#342

Post by drumdance »

joe_the_user wrote: post #314
indifferentalex wrote: post #19

10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it's effect…

I'd draw exactly the opposite conclusion. What matters isn't individual niceness but organization imperatives. One thing to consider is that "Tech" encompasses a number of organization types. Organizations vary in both how large and bureaucratic they are as well as how ruthlessly competitive they are. Working at Intel years ago, I saw an organization committed to equality in the work place but with a brutal demand th…

> organization imperatives

That's my feeling as well. My sister has worked in tech since 1981, but it's not Silicon Valley tech. It's large company tech like IBM and Citigroup. I asked if she's ever felt discriminated against and she said never. The closest she's come is working for a company that had a bit of a military culture because most of the senior leadership were ex-military. But even there she never felt discriminated against for being a woman per se.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#343

Post by drumdance »

Chris2048 wrote: post #304
GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People bring this up in every single thread about sexism in HN and almost every single time somebody gives them a cite to any of the several of efforts dedicated to getting dudes in those fields.

Which is meaningless without means of comparison. The fact that programs exist somewhere in the world tells us nothing about the importance placed, or resources spent, on those efforts.

Maybe if you actually worked in said industry you've have a better sense of the environment. I doubt the average nurse (male or female) knows much about how the tech industry works.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#344

Post by drumdance »

oldmanjay wrote: post #207
kelukelugames wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think it's okay to make dick jokes in the workplace?

What about the concept of a penis is offensive exactly? No one has ever been able to give me a reason that doesn't devolve into a repetition of "you just don't talk about that" and I'm not prepared to care about that.

I generally agree, but consider that talking about a dick is not just about anatomy. If you call someone a dick, it means he's an overly aggressive asshole. If you call someone a pussy, it means he's weak. If you joke about the size of someone's dick, it means he's insecure. Etc.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#345

Post by drumdance »

JDiculous wrote: post #246
zeveb wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". > If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". In my experience, the exact same thing is true with the sexes switched: behaviour which I find attractive in a woman I find attractive is awful in a woman I don't find attractive. I think this is probably a…

I disagree. Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman at a bar will at least be polite and have a normal conversation even if they're not interested. Whereas women will often outright ignore or even act hostile towards an awkward unattractive man trying to strike a conversation. Men are expected to treat women courteously, whereas women aren't held to the same standard. A woman can treat a man like a di…

> A woman can treat a man like a disposable garbage bag

I always hear people bring this up and I've never actually seen it unless the guy is overly aggressive (i.e. grabbing her ass). And if the guy is awkward women treat him with pity, not hostility.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#346

Post by pdex »

lloyd-christmas wrote: post #242
kelukelugames wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really think it's okay to make dick jokes in the workplace?

My female Australian boss says "dumb cunts" roughly 5x a day in reference to some 22 year old marketing "woo"-girls down the hall. I just made a comment about how my balls hang down my left pant leg. In my prior job, I'd never even bring up politics. It's almost as if people and environments are different.

I'd be more irked by the comment she made about your balls hanging down your pant leg. Sounds like sexual harassment to me, if it were me wouldn't let a boss speak to me in that fashion- male or female.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#347

Post by pdex »

gotchange wrote: post #103
indifferentalex wrote: post #19

10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it's effect…

> but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, So, no more "ladies first" and gentleman treatment for women?

The golden rule applies to everyone regardless of gender. Think of it like how you would speak to your mother or father (assuming one has a healthy, respectful relationship of course).

If you speak to a female colleague, is it something you can say to your own mother and be taken as appropriate? Same for if it were a male colleague, are the words appropriate to say to your own father?

If the answer is "No" then don't say it, I wish more companies would enforce this in their culture.

I've run into childish inappropriateness more than anything, phrases not indented to harass, but are extremely disrespectful, not funny, and easily taken the wrong way.

An example: 5 of us, one of them a female, were chatting in a breakroom when a male colleague joked about using a "fleshlight" to relieve stress (I am leaving out details to keep this short). He was straight out of college and didn't have much professional experience. The female in the group became visibly uncomfortable and left. Since the conversation was more about to know our colleague's hobbies outside of work, it was an incredibly awkward turn to the conversation. "Pfff, what's with HER?" the offending person asks as the female walks off, not knowing what he did, so another male in the group asked him if he talks to his mom "like that" about his fleshlight habit, it wasn't until then that he realized he was being inappropriate and he then apologized to everyone. He also sought out the female who left the conversation to apologize to her directly. He learned his lesson, but I've seen examples on BOTH sides of inappropriate talk that can alienate a person who's gender is in the minority of the group.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#348

Post by pron »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #223
pron wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you're just doing your normal schtick of incorrectly assuming that everyone else is stupid (obviously no one, including blowski, thinks "to not be sexist, you need to ignore information and make worse decisions"), but this time you have accidentally stumbled on an interesting point. I know you don't care one way or another, but for the sake of other readers, I'd like to point it out(and BTW, your specific exam…

I'll ignore your ad-hominem and your strange attempts to change the topic to your uncommon definition of sexism (as opposed to the original definition used by blowski, Pauline Leet, Caroline Bird, and everyone else here). You are correct that it is possible that by giving people snacks they prefer, I'm affecting their future preferences in some way. So what? All actions might possibly influence people's future prefer…

> your uncommon definition of sexism

My definition of sexism really is the common academic definition (although by "definition" I mean "definition plus corollaries", but it's a good enough approximation for people unfamiliar with research).

> Why would I trade actual predictable present-day happiness for unpredictable changes in future behavior that might theoretically be somewhat better?

Why wouldn't you? The question of what you should do is a philosophical question (perhaps the ultimate philosophical question) and depends largely on your values. I am not trying to dictate what you should or shouldn't do, simply show that your "optimal" decisions are not neutral ones based on "data" but ultimately a result of your assumptions and your (valued) goals. Achieving similar power distribution between men and women is a value of mine and it may not be yours, but you cannot justify your actions by anything other than another value.

> If you disagree with me that influence on future preferences is unpredictable, and think you can predict social dynamics better than random chance, offer me a basket of bets at favorable odds.

Well, my views of social dynamics are a result of years of study. I cannot say that my predictions are better than random because historians don't even try to make predictions (and I wouldn't dare call myself a historian), but we do know one thing for a fact: social action does indeed create social change. When it comes to complex systems, a familiarity with the dynamics does not translate to good predictions -- I'm sorry, but that's a direct result of the math. Non-linear, multivariate differential equations are very hard to predict (and we don't even have the right coefficients). But I know enough to recognize terrible reasoning that ignores what we do know, and denies its own assumptions.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#349

Post by JDiculous »

LesZedCB wrote: post #293
JDiculous wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman at a bar will at least be polite and have a normal conversation even if they're not interested. Whereas women will often outright ignore or even act hostile towards an awkward unattractive man trying to strike a conversation. Men are expected to treat women courteously, whereas women aren't held to the same standard. A woman can treat a man like a di…

Citation needed. Your assertion is completely baseless. Even in the event where it was in fact true, altering your behavior towards the person based on your expectation of what they might do based on statistics is the very mode of sexism.

> Citation needed. Your assertion is completely baseless.

If it was baseless, then I wouldn't be bringing it up.

I can't count how many times me or a friend has said "hi" to a girl at a bar/club only to be flat out ignored and even treated hostilely and told to "fuck off" (or something of that vein). On the other hand, I've never witnessed a female friend of mine being treated like that for saying hi to a stranger.

I realize that anecdotes are just anecdotes. But I'm sure you can find YouTube videos of what I'm talking about.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#350

Post by JDiculous »

drumdance wrote: post #345
JDiculous wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Most men if approached by an awkward unattractive woman at a bar will at least be polite and have a normal conversation even if they're not interested. Whereas women will often outright ignore or even act hostile towards an awkward unattractive man trying to strike a conversation. Men are expected to treat women courteously, whereas women aren't held to the same standard. A woman can treat a man like a di…

> A woman can treat a man like a disposable garbage bag I always hear people bring this up and I've never actually seen it unless the guy is overly aggressive (i.e. grabbing her ass). And if the guy is awkward women treat him with pity, not hostility.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10764099
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