Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

nautil.us

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 156 posts

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#121

Post by tedks »

slapshot wrote: post #71
astazangasta wrote: post #34

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

I am close to somebody who has been strongly affected by depression. She has, in any material respect, a perfect life. She has food, clothes, a supportive family, a great job, plenty of money, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with her life. But she suffers off-and-on depression. Not just "I feel bad" depression. Crippling, "can't get out of bed" depression. Periodic suicidal ideation. Occasional suicide attempts. She kn…

> She has, in any material respect, a perfect life. She has food, clothes, a supportive family, a great job, plenty of money, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with her life.

Could it possibly be that there is more to life than these things?

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#122

Post by meowface »

bigbugbag wrote: post #80
LesZedCB wrote: post #2

I'm excited for there to be alternatives to SSRIs. I've never been diagnosed with depression, but my partner has and takes an SSRI. It certainly seemed to have a generally positive affect (totally subjectively), and relatively few negative side affects. That being said, having to take it every day sucks, and when she runs out, having forgotten to get it refilled, the mood affects are pretty terrible for us both. Hope…

I recently read that the theory behind serotonin reuptake inhibitors might actually be wrong and possibly cause more harm than good. The actual neurotransmitter mechanism behind depression would be dopamine. I'm sorry that I can't recall the source, but you should look into this.

There is no consensus on what the root causes of major depression are; there are probably many causes. Dopamine can definitely affect happiness, but giving a chronically depressed patient L-DOPA once per day generally won't treat their depression for very long.

On that same note, people with ADHD are often missing dopamine in many parts of the brain, but ADHD isn't necessarily correlated strongly with depression. And quick dopamine-releasing drugs like amphetamine (Adderall/Dexedrine/Vyvanse), or dopamine reuptake inhibitors like methylphenidate (Ritalin/Concerta), tend not to be great treatments for depression, either. They can be a short term treatment by giving you a euphoric high the first few times you take them, or if you take big doses, but that's not a good long term treatment strategy.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#123

Post by meowface »

lilcarlyung wrote: post #25

What with the pro-drug posts here all the time. I'm guessing that most of the HN audience is American. Is it common among techies in the U.S. to experiment with psychoactive drugs, hence the interest and knowledge? Please, do not mention Steve Jobs acid experiences.

Is it uncommon in other countries? It's definitely very popular for Americans under the age of 30 to experiment with many kinds of drugs.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#124

Post by meowface »

throwaway439853 wrote: post #93

A warning to those considering experimenting with Ketamine. It may help alleviate depression, but the flip side is can reduce the 'technical ability' part of the brain to such an extent that you will no longer be able to code. This will wear off in a few days, but it is not side-effect free drug - there are still many unknowns.

Ketamine has a lot of mechanisms of action, but one of its big ones is that it's a major NMDA receptor antagonist. This prevents glutamate from affecting cells very well. A major decrease in glutamic activity may reduce depression, but it can effectively drop your IQ by quite a lot. People generally report feeling "very stupid" and "brain foggy" after taking strong NMDA antagonists.

I don't know if ketamine has high risk of causing general intelligence reduction in the long term, but there are reports of that from people who abuse the drug in recreational doses for a long period of time. So, it's definitely something to be wary about.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#125

Post by tajen »

astazangasta wrote: post #34

I have been depressed a significant fraction of my adult life. I am also a biologist who abhors the medical description of this problem. I don't even like the word 'mental illness'. This shit is not an illness, its a normal response to a fucked up life! Can I get at least some acknowledgment of this fact? The sine qua non for me was an issue of Nature a few years back that focused on depression, talked about how prev…

I wish alcohol were seen as a depressant too...

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#126

Post by DanBC »

kafkaesq wrote: post #36
DanBC wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty irresponsible to mention "increased risk" without saying what that risk is, nor what the increase actually is. Especially when suicide is one of the leading causes of death of women during the perinatal period.

Pretty irresponsible to mention "increased risk" without saying what that risk is, nor what the increase actually is. The article makes it perfectly clear what the risk is, how much the increase is, and with what factors it is associated; and what the researchers caveats were about their own findings. The poster you were slamming wasn't spreading FUD or hyperbolizing; he was just simplifying. It's pretty irresponsibl…

> The article makes it perfectly clear what the risk is, how much the increase is,

Maybe I'm missing it, but from that article: what's the base rate, what's the rate if a woman takes SSRIs, and what's the increase?

(And here rates are provided in X per 100,000)

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#127

Post by user_0001 »

cpncrunch wrote: post #74
dismal2 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

are you anti-drug? if so, why?

I think the OP just found it curious. Turning the question around: do you think it's a good idea to screw around with your brain using something like ketamine (other than in a controlled way, such as a clinical trial or under guidance from a doctor)?

yes. Everyone should experience the k-hole

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#128

Post by isolate »

user_0001 wrote: post #127
cpncrunch wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the OP just found it curious. Turning the question around: do you think it's a good idea to screw around with your brain using something like ketamine (other than in a controlled way, such as a clinical trial or under guidance from a doctor)?

yes. Everyone should experience the k-hole

What if you have a psychotic disorder? Prevalence is ~3%.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#129

Post by DanBC »

onga5v wrote: post #76

I see several people in this thread welcoming the fact that there is "finally an alternative to SSRIs". I don't want to discuss whether Ketamine is or is not a good alternative to SSRIs -- instead, I'd like to point out that there are already a great number of alternatives to SSRIs. For one, there are tricyclics (TCAs), which were the first antidepressants on the market, and generally are not prescribed nowadays. Ano…

Depression is a major risk factor in suicide.

Tricyclics are frequently used in attempted and completed suicide.

Being more careful with prescribing tricyclics to people with suicidal ideation would probably reduce the numbers of attempted and completed suicide.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#130

Post by user_0001 »

bigbugbag wrote: post #88
user_0001 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not recreational dosages. At serious addiction levels yes. It would be like saying having a couple of recreational beers on a Friday causes liver failure. It doesn't. Drinking a bottle of whiskey every day for an extended period of time, perhaps. Same with Ketamine

This is in direct contradiction of the usual consensus among harm reduction practitioners, as explained on erowid: Ketamine and Bladder Health In some cases, chronic ketamine use has been associated with urinary tract symptoms that can include increased frequency of urination, urinary incontinence, pain during urination, passing blood in the urine, and reduced bladder size. In several reported severe cases, surgical…

Am not sure what part of your post contradicts what I wrote.

>In some cases, chronic ketamine use has been associated >In several reported severe cases

Chronic / addiction levels yes. Not recreational levels. As I put

As to ketamine and bladder problems. I used to be involved with the UK free party scene which had serious problems with ketamine in the early 2000s ( up until the supply shortage caused by the Indian clampdown a few years ago), before it was well known about the addiction / health problems it could cause (although issues were known, but it wasn't generally well known beyond a few knowledgeable people).

You would often hear that ketamine had no comedown, had no side effects. Users would start out being weekend users, then progress to daily, sniffing between 3-7 grams a day, all day - everyday. Then gradually you started hearing about stomach cramps, difficulty going to the toilet, thinking you had to go to the toilet every 10 minutes, having to urinate a jelly/jello like bloody substance. Drs had no idea what was going on and were no help. But by this stage the addiction had them completely and the only way to stop the pain was to sniff more ketamine. Eventually it led to a girl having kidneys and / or bladder removed and slowly the public conscience about the dangers of ketamine was known.

However, of all the users I knew who kept it to only weekends, used ketamine for years with none of the above mentioned health problems. Anecdotally of course and I am sure there may be edge cases I am unaware of. But recreational use of ketamine does not cause bladder problems IME

Post reply on HN