Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness • Hacker News Board

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#91

Post by _ywdj » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 1:50 AM UTC

rl3 wrote: post #77

_ywdj wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your position, as it's one I held very strongly for a long time. I also agree with your point about "people reacting to things with the wrong emotions or the wrong intensity of emotion"; understanding and addressing this has been fundamental to my own recovery. What I'm disputing is the notion that there is a clear-cut distinction between "exogenous" and "endogenous" depression, and that one is "totally…

> What I'm disputing is the notion that there is a clear-cut distinction between "exogenous" and "endogenous" depression, and that one is "totally unrelated" to the other. While I agree that neither exist in complete isolation, it still doesn't preclude one from being the dominant cause. Moreover, not many people would advance the same argument in regards to conditions such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder—how cl…

While I agree that neither exist in complete isolation, it still doesn't preclude one from being the dominant cause.

Well the argument I was responding to was that the two are completely unrelated, so if you accept that they're not, we're mostly on the same page.

The question then is how common it is for one to be overwhelmingly dominant.

From my experiences and research, I'd suggest that like most other biological phenomena, it fits a Gaussian distribution, in which for the majority of people it would be within 75/25 in either direction.

Moreover, not many people would advance the same argument in regards to conditions such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder

This may be where I lose you completely, but I would make the same argument for those conditions.

It's common for the manifestations of those illnesses to be triggered by an acute trauma or prolonged exposure to abuse. But of course the innate propensity to develop that condition had to be there too.

In my own experience, I exhibited bipolar tendencies years ago (as strongly as others I know who were formally diagnosed with it). Since changing both my environment and my emotional tendencies, I no longer do.

Others with schizophrenia report becoming symptom-free by following a similar approach.

I'd contend that the whole reason mainstream medicine continues to be so hit-and-miss when it comes to treating mental "illness" is that it continues to resist viewing it in this way.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#92

Post by nether » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

cypherpunks01 wrote: post #49

comrh wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did it work for you? Any side effects?

I used it for a couple months at the oral dose that the early phase NIH clinical trial found to be effective. I did feel like i got a positive benefit from it with no side effects, though didn't do any extensive blind testing myself so it's purely anecdotal. I found it to lift some constant anxieties a bit, and help guide my overall outlook on life more positively. That said, I did find ketamine to be an extremely ef…

Might I ask how you self-administer your ketamine? And where do you acquire it? You can email me at nodus3 at google mail.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#93

Post by throwaway439853 » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 1:51 AM UTC

A warning to those considering experimenting with Ketamine. It may help alleviate depression, but the flip side is can reduce the 'technical ability' part of the brain to such an extent that you will no longer be able to code.

This will wear off in a few days, but it is not side-effect free drug - there are still many unknowns.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#94

Post by _ywdj » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 1:53 AM UTC

rl3 wrote: post #90

cpncrunch wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There certainly does seem to be a difference between depression vs bipolar/schizophrenia. Major depression is a lot more prevalent than the others, and stress seems to be a much greater part of the etiology. Having seen various family members with clinical depression and schizophrenia, life events were always associated with the depression, but not for the schizophrenia. My own view is that depression is an evolved r…

> My own view is that depression is an evolved response to negative stresses and situations, and that clinical depression is the far end of this scale. How do you reconcile this with cases of clinical depression where the person's life is otherwise fantastic, and yet they suffer from crippling depression anyways—absent any negative stresses or situations?

I would question the definition of a "fantastic" life. Appearance and reality are very different things.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#95

Post by rl3 » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 1:58 AM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #91

rl3 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I'm disputing is the notion that there is a clear-cut distinction between "exogenous" and "endogenous" depression, and that one is "totally unrelated" to the other. While I agree that neither exist in complete isolation, it still doesn't preclude one from being the dominant cause. Moreover, not many people would advance the same argument in regards to conditions such as schizophrenia or bipolar disorder—how cl…

While I agree that neither exist in complete isolation, it still doesn't preclude one from being the dominant cause. Well the argument I was responding to was that the two are completely unrelated , so if you accept that they're not, we're mostly on the same page. The question then is how common it is for one to be overwhelmingly dominant. From my experiences and research, I'd suggest that like most other biological…

>This may be where I lose you completely, but I would make the same argument for those conditions.

While I'm not disputing that emotional techniques can be beneficial, my main point was that in certain cases, the cause of the condition is probably the result of overwhelmingly dominant biochemical or physiological factors.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#96

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

escape_goat wrote: post #44

The full article title is "A Vaccine for Depression?: Ketamine's effect holsters a new theory of mental illness." I have mixed feelings about posts being required to suffer from the title, as this is often an editorial rather than an authorial decision, but the submerged gist of the article, the novel content, is indeed the suggestion that Ketamine could be used as a "vaccine" for post-traumatic stress disorder. A fe…

[deleted]

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#97

Post by cpncrunch » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 2:01 AM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #94

rl3 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My own view is that depression is an evolved response to negative stresses and situations, and that clinical depression is the far end of this scale. How do you reconcile this with cases of clinical depression where the person's life is otherwise fantastic, and yet they suffer from crippling depression anyways—absent any negative stresses or situations?

I would question the definition of a "fantastic" life. Appearance and reality are very different things.

Yes, my experience agrees with this. I'm also interested in knowing exactly how "fantastic" the life of this person actually is. Stress levels? Relationships? Negative emotions?

I was in similar denial at the beginning, until I realised that these factors are important.

I'm certainly open to the possibility that depression might be possible for someone with a fantastic life, but from what I've seen that doesn't correspond with the experiences of myself and friends/family who have experienced it.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#98

Post by johndevor » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 2:06 AM UTC

altonzheng wrote: post #18

It doesn't surprise me one bit that we have a very poor understanding of how to treat depression. I think we often have a reductionist view of it. The fact that a whole constellation of causes is referred to as just 'depression' bugs me.

Well put. I find it troubling that we spend so much on research when it's a very -- dare I say -- wholistic problem with a myriad number of causes, some subtle and some more obvious. We may never understand fully the depth of the problem and shining a light on things like certain drugs, while helpful as short-term fixes for certain individuals, may just be masking those other issues.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#99

Post by rl3 » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 2:19 AM UTC

_ywdj wrote: post #94

rl3 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My own view is that depression is an evolved response to negative stresses and situations, and that clinical depression is the far end of this scale. How do you reconcile this with cases of clinical depression where the person's life is otherwise fantastic, and yet they suffer from crippling depression anyways—absent any negative stresses or situations?

I would question the definition of a "fantastic" life. Appearance and reality are very different things.

I realize that. My point was that when the source of the depression is primarily biochemical/physiological in nature, that no matter how good the person's life is, or how well they apply emotional techniques, it can still cripple them.

Re: Ketamine’s effect bolsters a new theory of mental illness

#100

Post by jacques_chester » Sat, Dec 19, 2015, 2:26 AM UTC

bigbugbag wrote: post #80

LesZedCB wrote: post #2

I'm excited for there to be alternatives to SSRIs. I've never been diagnosed with depression, but my partner has and takes an SSRI. It certainly seemed to have a generally positive affect (totally subjectively), and relatively few negative side affects. That being said, having to take it every day sucks, and when she runs out, having forgotten to get it refilled, the mood affects are pretty terrible for us both. Hope…

I recently read that the theory behind serotonin reuptake inhibitors might actually be wrong and possibly cause more harm than good. The actual neurotransmitter mechanism behind depression would be dopamine. I'm sorry that I can't recall the source, but you should look into this.

It varies from patient to patient, the causes are varied, the drugs have powerful effects and conditions can overlap.

This is why it's important to trust your care to a psychiatrist or allied mental health professional.