Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
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Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
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Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#2I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical),
laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem.
We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#3I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
Haskell's learning curve is certainly steeper than other popular general programming languages. But my view on that is best explained with an analogy: calculus is certainly harder to learn than arithmetic approximations but once learned, the complexity of calculus is factored out of all the problems suited for solving with it. Haskell is excellently suited for solving extremely complex problems and why it's so desirable for concurrency and parallelism tasks.
On your second point, while it seems nice to have Haskell features slowly percolate into other languages, I urge caution in thinking that's a panacea for not learning more complex languages. Haskell is greater than the sum of all it's features. It's power comes from the combination of everything working together in a very well thought-out way.
So I don't necessarily disagree with your tone, just some additional commentary from someone who knows C++, Python, Java, and Haskell equally well (and perhaps equally bad ;) ).
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#4I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it.
The aim isn't necessarily widespread adoption, so much as the ability for people who know it to use professionally. It's way past merely "production ready", but reputation is a lagging indicator and so most programmers are stuck doing Java...
Since the goal is to avoid {success at all costs}, getting 25% market share is probably not possible. 1 percent would be a start.
The problem, economically speaking, is that Haskell and Clojure engineers are massively underpaid, when you consider that an average Haskeller would be Principal+ at any Java shop. That's because the Java and C++ people can create bidding wars every year and spike their salaries, whereas using a better but more niche language makes that career strategy untenable.
Haskell's laziness isn't as much of an issue as people make it out to be. You can have strictness any time you need it, so it's more akin to an opt-out model than laziness being forced upon the programmer. It is correct to observe that high-performance applications frequently have a lot of strictness annotations, and the argument can be made that high-performance Haskell (while it can be close to C in performance) isn't "idiomatic"... although that claim is true of all high-level languages (even Java). High-performance Clojure ends up being full of '^' characters for type annotations, and high-performance Haskell ends up being full of '!' characters for strictness.
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#5I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
> It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad
In my university, Programming 101 (mandatory) was (and is) Haskell. For context, there is typically a mix of experience among the class - some will have programmed seriously before, but others will have only studied math.
I had already studied Java, but I found Haskell a delightful re-introduction (it was my first exposure to functional programming) and I see its value as an educational tool.
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#6I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. The aim isn't necessarily widespread adoption, so much as the ability for people who know it to use professionally. It's way past merely "production ready", but reputation is a lagging indicator and so most programmers are stuck doing Java... Since the goal is to avoid {success at all costs}, getting 25% market share is probably not possible.…
Great points. I can attest to the fact that low-latency Java code looks nothing like idiomatic Java. Ironically, the techniques for writing low latency Java are the same in Haskell (avoiding object creation, boxing, garbage collection, etc). High performance C and C++ are a league of their own with direct control over memory layout and alignment etc. Haskell has some amazing work on that front as well though: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~dorchard/publ/icfp-2013-simd-vector...
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#7I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
> It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad In my university, Programming 101 (mandatory) was (and is) Haskell. For context, there is typically a mix of experience among the class - some will have programmed seriously before, but others will have only studied math. I had already studied Java, but I found Haskell a delightful re-introduction (it was my first exposure to functional programming) and I see its value…
From what I've heard, MIT does the same thing with CS101, except in Scheme. Starting the curriculum that way seems like a good idea (in the long run, since internships and whatnot all want Java or C++/C#), between leveling the playing field and providing a foundation on a lot of the "math" that CS is based on.
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#8I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. The aim isn't necessarily widespread adoption, so much as the ability for people who know it to use professionally. It's way past merely "production ready", but reputation is a lagging indicator and so most programmers are stuck doing Java... Since the goal is to avoid {success at all costs}, getting 25% market share is probably not possible.…
> high-performance Haskell ends up being full of '!' characters for strictness.
The upcoming GHC 8 provides the Strict extensions which makes everything strict by default on a per-module level. That should greatly reduce the number of »!« characters.
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#9I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
> It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad In my university, Programming 101 (mandatory) was (and is) Haskell. For context, there is typically a mix of experience among the class - some will have programmed seriously before, but others will have only studied math. I had already studied Java, but I found Haskell a delightful re-introduction (it was my first exposure to functional programming) and I see its value…
> In my university, Programming 101 (mandatory) was (and is) Haskell
I think this is true at a lot of universities. I would have thought if you get a random CS grad they're much more likely to have Haskell experience than Go, Ruby, Clojure, etc.
Re: Reflecting on Haskell in 2015
#10I like Haskell but I see no future in terms of widespread adoption for it. It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad and for some projects one would like to use it for (let's say security critical), laziness (and non-predictable behavior in terms of memory use and performance) is a big problem. We do however see some of its features being slowly introduced to other languages which is nice, I guess.
> It's simply too alien for your typical CS grad
I think its more too alien for your typical mid- to late-career developer that hasn't seen a CS classroom for a decade or more, or your typical successful non-CS-degree-holding autodidact developer that's done well with a narrow range of industrially-popular languages, than it is too alien for your typical CS grad.