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My positive experience as a woman in tech

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Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#171

Post by vezzy-fnord »

reitanqild wrote: post #157
tomp wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So who exactly is good in this situation? And please don't say the "soldiers" who invaded Iraq...

I specified good because we both know not all cops are good. As for the soldiers that invaded Iraq I'd say you should judge the politicians first. I guess a lot of the soldiers felt a lot like the German soldiers that invaded certain European countries and were surprised to be shot at when they were told and many honestly thought they came to protect the locals against an imminent attack from British forces. Edit: an…

it was lame European pacifist politicians that let Hitler get so far

I'm not sure what gives certain Americans such a knack for injecting Anti-European sentiment. Is this what they're taught in history classes, or something else?

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#172

Post by jccalhoun »

adrianN wrote: post #11
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #6

Sexism is not "over-rated" OECD's Social Institutions and Gender Index Is at http://www.genderindex.org , and is a litany of baked in prejudice, violence, lack of access to education, lack of access to property and other normal legal rights. When we compare the lot of a 16 yo girl in Rwanda to a High schooler in SF, yes it is hard to find where the High schooler is having problems, but we just have to look at the rat…

I'm still not convinced that the lack of women in tech is due to sexism. Maybe women just aren't as excited by the field as men? Nobody seems to question that this is the reason why there are so few male preschool teachers.

As others have noted, lots of people question why there are so few male preschool teachers. Additionally, the fact is that there once were more women in tech than there are now. The book The Computer Boys Take Over and others have shown that early programmers were women and over time the concept of a programmer changed to our more modern conception.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#173

Post by douche »

SCHiM wrote: post #110

Keep in mind that the situation she recalls, the one with the guy that apologizes to her for cussing, is perhaps not the sort of sexism you would want to try and get rid of. The way I see it, this coming from a early 20s male (read, shall we say, constantly aware of the opposing sex), is that that attempt to be polite to a woman has nothing to do with her being a woman in tech, but simply being a woman in a social si…

Women really, really, don't want to be treated the way men treat each other when they get together without external sources of censure. Trust me on that.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#174

Post by eric-hu »

cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

I feel like I've seen similar things, but I would phrase it differently.

It seems like--on average, not as a a rule--women find men who are more socially adept to be more attractive. This is measured partly in how a man hits on a woman.

If a man doesn't quite meet the bar of "socially adept" or "smooth", he can be creepy. This is one type of not-smooth, with other types including awkward and clumsy. These are not mutually exclusive, nor are they the same.

The tragedy to me is that the awkward and clumsy guys are pitied--they don't know any better. The creepy guy tends to be looked upon with disdain, as if he should know better.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#175

Post by blowski »

charlieflowers wrote: post #146
blowski wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Sexism is not identical to misogynism. Where the latter is about being nasty, sexism is believing something about somebody solely based on their gender. So if I assume you don't like pizza and football because you're female, so instead buy you frozen yoghurt, I'm being sexist even if it's with the nicest of intentions. We're all human and we all make mistakes, but sometimes people blow those mistakes out of…

> So if I assume you don't like pizza and football because you're female, so instead buy you frozen yoghurt, I'm being sexist I don't think so (if anyone thinks I'm wrong, I'd like to hear your thoughts). I think to be sexist, it must be (1) based on gender and (2) assume something _disparaging_ about the individual. Getting them yoghurt might get you laughed at for being silly, but it doesn't seem sexist to me. Assu…

> (2) assume something _disparaging_ about the individual.

The problem is that "disparaging" is in the eye of the beholder. What you think of as silly might be really offensive to another person. What was harmless 30 years ago - say, pinching a female colleague's bum - could today be considered beyond the pale.

It's better not to assume anything about anybody unless necessary. I'm sure you've been in a situation where somebody has assumed something about you, and it can be really annoying.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#176

Post by DanBC »

douche wrote: post #173
SCHiM wrote: post #110

Keep in mind that the situation she recalls, the one with the guy that apologizes to her for cussing, is perhaps not the sort of sexism you would want to try and get rid of. The way I see it, this coming from a early 20s male (read, shall we say, constantly aware of the opposing sex), is that that attempt to be polite to a woman has nothing to do with her being a woman in tech, but simply being a woman in a social si…

Women really, really, don't want to be treated the way men treat each other when they get together without external sources of censure. Trust me on that.

A lot of men really really don't want to be treated like that either.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#177

Post by reitanqild »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #171
reitanqild wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specified good because we both know not all cops are good. As for the soldiers that invaded Iraq I'd say you should judge the politicians first. I guess a lot of the soldiers felt a lot like the German soldiers that invaded certain European countries and were surprised to be shot at when they were told and many honestly thought they came to protect the locals against an imminent attack from British forces. Edit: an…

it was lame European pacifist politicians that let Hitler get so far I'm not sure what gives certain Americans such a knack for injecting Anti-European sentiment. Is this what they're taught in history classes, or something else?

I'm very much not American.

I have had a huge interest in wartime history when I was younger though which might explain a bit.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#178

Post by analyst74 »

golergka wrote: post #48

> It’s impossible to know, especially since they don’t know either! If you confront them on their sexism, they will deny all of it, and truly believe it. It takes a lot of introspection to see one’s internalized stereotypes. Therefore, a lot of the time, you cannot be sure if you have experienced sexist behavior, and there is no way to find out for sure, since the perpetrator doesn’t know either. There are many false…

That's why it's important to be exposed to different colors and sexes, or just people different from yourself. I have personally find myself to be much better as introspection and sympathize better with minorities once I moved to a country where I'm the minority.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#179

Post by peterwwillis »

sarahnadav wrote: post #83

I am glad that this woman had a good experience, but it is the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who wants to use this as social proof that gender discrimination isn't a huge problem in the industry is fooling themselves.

Anyone who reads any kind of "personal experience article" and takes it as anything but anecdotal is fooling themselves.

It doesn't matter if the article is for or against a particular opinion, or if it takes a measured tone down some middle road. A single experience does the opposite of expose institutional problems: it makes it appear like there may or may not be one, while providing no scientific basis from which to draw a broader conclusion.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#180

Post by xena »

meowface wrote: post #37
lmm wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that deliberately trying to accommodate women can result in being more sexist. Which is pretty ironic.

I'm not a woman, but if I were one, I think I'd be pretty irritated if I was given special privileges or encouragement over male peers to "help me succeed" or something. That seems condescending and unfair.

Being transgender gives you an interesting view on tech things. It feels like deadlines and other things are less hardly enforced for me and there is an overall greater sense of leeway than I feel like I would have otherwise had if I was still "in the closet". It feels like it is subconscious on their part, but it is at least convenient.

It also shows up in interviews surprisingly.

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