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My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

theguardian.com

41–50 of 99 posts

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#41
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of (and I would actually argue most) people are solely there to get a piece of paper which lets them have access to a decent job, and they're paying enormous amounts of money (and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt) to get that piece of paper. For all intents and purposes, they ARE paying for a product, and that's how they view it. College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, and when a s…

> are solely there to get a piece of paper And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved. > and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). > College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, In most of…

> And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category?

Because that "disgusting and lowly category" is the dominant demographic of users; get off your high horse.

> Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all).

Student loan debt is some of the hardest to escape debt in the world, and if you don't get a solid job when you get out of college you can be absolutely crippled by it.

> In most of the areas this is not true.

In software development this is not true, but that's about it. In pretty much every basic job they expect to see a college degree or you're not getting a callback.

Your physician example is also a poor one, as most of what is learned in pre-med has nothing to do with practicing medicine and is just an arbitrary barrier to entry to a professional school.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#42
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

This is a really interesting point of view, even if I disagree. What you basically have proposed is that the person who has responsibility for the end result of learning is the teacher not the student. I certainly never thought about it that way in either undergrad or grad school, but I am struggling to actually come up with a good role based counter. The best I can come up with is that learning, generally, is the re…

What I have seen is that there are many different good explainations of material. However some of these will result in faster uptake by me. The only way the economic transaction of education makes sense to me is to acknowledge the potential of passive learning (books, internet), but to recognize the desire to speed the process. While I can pick up a book on abstract algebra and work through the problems myself to gain understanding, I know that I can pay someone who already is an expert in abstract algebra to package up the mental abstractions for me. Its like using compression for webpages. You could transmit everything uncompressed and the web would work just fine. However we want to save time and money so we compress, delivering content faster and using less bandwidth. The only justification I can see for teachers to exist in a free market is that they speed the process of knowledge aquisition.

Now I support fee schedules based on how much work the teacher has to do the shove the knowledge into the head. If it will cost $X for a fast student, I don't have any problem with the market pricing that same knowledge to a slow student at $X,XXX. Teachers should be compensated for their expertise. However setting the market price is up to the participant, and a contract to deliver the good should be binding. If teachers were bound to deliver the information, then I see average prices being higher becuase of the lemon effect, but that is an entirely different problem than what we have now.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#43
post #33
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

>Teachers are supposed to be experts at matching students with explainations of concepts. I thought teachers were supposed to be experts in their field of study that have a desire to pass that knowledge on to those that are interested. Not everyone will have the capacity for learning those things. As an example, I love art but despite years of trying both books and classes, I just cannot bring the images in my mind i…

The thing to understand is that these students clearly don't inherently care for the class. The graduation requirements list it, and either they care about the subject matter and can learn it in better quality and better time on their own, or they don't and they're not paying to learn.

Somehow in between the "younger generation" and the previous one, it became impossible to get a middle-class job without a college degree. Doesn't really matter what you learned, but it's a basic expectation that you made it through those four years.

And the world does owe people a fair chance at a living. To the extent that that involves a useless college degree because people want the credential, yes, the world owes them that.

Frankly the academics should just admit that their own incentives don't include teaching, give students easy exams, and get on with research. There's no reason for them to do otherwise, and if they try to be better at teaching than they need to and run into conflict, they're the ones who are acting entitled.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#44
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

> I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional [sic] life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads That's not what you're paying for. They're not experts in pedagogy, they're experts in their field of research. If you don't understand the course materials it's your job as a student to rectify that, either through self-study or seeking help. Cle…

[deleted]

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#45
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

> I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional [sic] life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads That's not what you're paying for. They're not experts in pedagogy, they're experts in their field of research. If you don't understand the course materials it's your job as a student to rectify that, either through self-study or seeking help. Cle…

I am not only talking about university here. This attitude pervades the entire structure of education all the way down to primary school.

What I am advocating here for is different system that actually allows students to purchase the level of education that they want. Ideally the cost would be based on how much work the teacher has to do to shove the knowledge into your head. If a student is struggling, then they can either choose to pay more to learn it, or drop out. The current system is not a market for knowledge at all. There is no continous supply curve for students to change pricing. There is a huge economic inefficiency here, and I am sure that the surplus is not being captured by the students.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#46
post #21
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

You're describing a tutor, not a teacher. It's the equivalent of blaming the customer service rep when something their company made broke.

Well, yes, if the CSRs treat the product as their own and tell people that their job is creating the product, sure we'll blame them!

The faster that university professors admit that degrees are not a product of the professors, they're a product of the administrators and accreditors and the social system that expects people to have degrees, the faster they'll get out of the way of blame.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#47
> Moreover, when I was studying would I have ever had the balls to contact my lecturers and not only question their ability to grade my work appropriately but imply that my low grade was their fault?

It's not surprising that students want to get a second opinion on grading.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03bqlht

> More than 90,000 GCSE and A-level results were changed after challenges to grades awarded this summer - the highest on record.

> The figures represent an increase of 17% compared with last year.

> Results have a significant impact on both students and institutions, affecting whether or not pupils gain a university place and where schools appear in league tables.

(GCSE exams are taken in school by 16 year olds. A level exams are taken in schools or colleges by 18 year olds, and are what is used to get entry to university.)

EDIT: In 2013 there were 850,752 GCSE exams taken. So 90,000 incorrect grades is more than 10% - and these are just the exams that asked for a re-grade. When students have seen a serious error in their grades, or the grades of a friend, it's not surprising that they realise that just asking for a regrade could increase their marks.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#48
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

You seem to be confusing grade school and university.

The lecturers and professors you will find at university are not experts in pedagogy, and the vast majority will never have claimed they were. They are experts and leading active researchers in their chosen field. They have devoted their professional life to studying and extending the state of the art of knowledge in their chosen field.

If you want to study a subject at university level, it's likely that some of the material that you would learn at university is not yet in published books, because the only people who currently know the material are the researchers at your university who just discovered it, and are trying hard to find the time to write a book on it, around furthering their research, writing papers for journals (which they need to do, and which books do not count towards) and giving however many classes of lectures a week that they've been told to get on with, without a vast amount of training.

In grade school, the material you will learn are basics of subjects that have been understood for a while, and written and refined in books some time ago. The material can be understood by people competent (but not necessarily expert) in the field, and can therefore be passed on, or spoon-fed, by people who are expert professional teachers. This is required in grade school, because students in grade school are not yet adults, and generally don't yet have enough self-discipline and self-awareness to put in the work now for later benefit without being shepherded the whole way.

When you get to university, it is presumed that you are mature enough to have the self-discipline and self-awareness to figure out partly for yourself how to learn from the people who are the most advanced in the world in your chosen field, rather than the best teachers.

That presumption seems to have worked out pretty well for modern universities for the last 500 years.

Maybe university is not actually the place you want to be.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#49
post #8

tl;dr: professor has a few bad experiences with students and, combining them with a choice anecdote from an unnamed colleague, proceeds to generalize to not only the (presumably) hundreds of students he has taught, but students, everywhere, in general. Having been a student myself, I could recount the time when a professor chose to replace her all twelve of her lectures with student presentations, then tested us on e…

Personally, I tend to downvote people who whine about karma. I can get enough of that crap on reddit.

Someone can disagree with you without having to get into an extended debate. That's why the voting buttons exist.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#50
My lectures are designed to supplement learning that my students are expected to have done prior to class. The lectures are a summary of the material, with worked examples, a chance to ask questions to clear up misunderstandings, and for discussion of key concepts.

Lectures are attended by dozens of students, so they cannot be a personalized tutorial service. That's what office hours are for. My best students don't usually need office hours as they are pretty much self-taught, but the next tier down show up regularly and we sit down together and go through exactly the material they want to focus on in the detail they need.

I tailor my pedagogy to these engaged students, not to the ones who expect to be handed an A for a minimum amount of effort. If you don't work, you'll deservedly do very poorly, and I'm not willing to waste my limited resources on you. And, no, I'm not going to curve your grade up either, because that's not fair on the good students.

Unsurprisingly, poor students don't show up to office hours, don't take advantage of our free tutoring service, turn in material late, and regularly miss lectures. All these failings are entirely their own responsibility, not mine.

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