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My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

theguardian.com

31–40 of 99 posts

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#31
post #21
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

You're describing a tutor, not a teacher. It's the equivalent of blaming the customer service rep when something their company made broke.

You're describing a tutor, not a teacher.

I had the same thought, but what practically is the distinction? The only thing I can come up with is scope, but even then, there are plenty of tutors that teach a fairly wide range of a topic like a teacher would. I have seen plenty of Calculus II tutors but never a integration by parts tutor.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#32
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

> I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional [sic] life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads

That's not what you're paying for. They're not experts in pedagogy, they're experts in their field of research.

If you don't understand the course materials it's your job as a student to rectify that, either through self-study or seeking help. Clearly the student in question didn't understand the course materials well enough compared to his peers to receive a top-class grade (in the UK 70%+ is a first, the highest grade you can get).

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#33
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

>Teachers are supposed to be experts at matching students with explainations of concepts.

I thought teachers were supposed to be experts in their field of study that have a desire to pass that knowledge on to those that are interested. Not everyone will have the capacity for learning those things. As an example, I love art but despite years of trying both books and classes, I just cannot bring the images in my mind into the physical world. I'm a responsible enough adult to accept that this is my shortcoming and not the fault of my teachers. I simply don't have the hand-eye coordination necessary to produce the things that I can imagine.

>[edit] The attitude of teachers astounds me

The overly-privileged, entitled attitude of the younger generation astounds me. You have to work for what you get. The world does not owe you a living. You have to understand that you are not a special little flower that is more important that everyone else. That said, neither are you just another cog in the machine unless you choose to be so. It is perfectly possible to be an individual without being a disrespectful, self-important boor. Why is it okay for you to inconvenience your professor, who likely has a life outside of work, but it is unthinkable for them to schedule anything that inconveniences you. What makes you more important than the other 500 students they are teaching this semester?

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#34
Lazy people everywhere. Lazy students who can't be bothered to do something as simple as an assignment and then complain about it. Lazy professors who repeat the same lectures for over a decade, don't give any feedback and don't give a fuck about what the pupils are learning. In my university we don't even get to see the corrected exam we handed in. We receive a numerical grade by email and that's it. I have no idea what that meant. It's disgusting... :(

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#35
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be happy to sell you a chance to eat, or a chance for medial care, or a chance for housing. Education is as necessary as a public utility. To charge any price for a chance to learn while billing as a product (actually knowing things about the world) is a pure example of fraud.

Food can be guaranteed. Functionality of medical care doesn't often depend on the actions of the patient. Learning can only happen with active studying. Nobody can push the knowledge into your brain. All you are offered is the chance to learn, and no guarantees of graduating if you turn out to be incompetent at it.

> Functionality of medical care doesn't often depend on the actions of the patient.

Actually, the functionality of medical care does depend on the actions of the patient to do what the medical system instructs them to do. When a person doesn't follow doctor's orders, there is a high possibility that the person in need of medical care doesn't actually get the results they expect.

> All you are offered is the chance to learn, and no guarantees of graduating if you turn out to be incompetent at it.

While I agree with your sentiment and the principle of what you're suggesting, most universities aren't packaging it like this. When you see the ads and you read their propaganda... er, I mean their pretty glossy brochures, they are selling it as exactly that: "Come to XU, get a degree in Y, our graduates have a 100% career placement success." "Get a degree in X, the best value in the country, no other University offers our graduation statistics." They might as well be a play by play from the consumer manipulation handbook. So I can't blame students for playing it both ways. I don't think students are stupid at all, I'm sure many of them know that they're not actually buying the degree, but they're all too well versed in how the media is being used to manipulate things to their own ends, and the student playing dumb to that manipulation and using it to their own ends is a classic example of using the University's own tactics against them.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#36
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of (and I would actually argue most) people are solely there to get a piece of paper which lets them have access to a decent job, and they're paying enormous amounts of money (and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt) to get that piece of paper. For all intents and purposes, they ARE paying for a product, and that's how they view it. College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, and when a s…

> are solely there to get a piece of paper And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved. > and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). > College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, In most of…

> And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved.

Because (at least for me (and everyone I've spoken to)) university is completely useless. I haven't learnt anything in uni I hadn't already taught myself. I am 100% paying for the letters after my name.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#37
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

There is only so much you can be "taught". In fact the classical approach to lecturing is not the most effective way: the passive student & active teacher roles are ill-suited to achieve a good learning outcome. Research shows that active and self-driven students learn the most but also that they benefit from the mentoring qualities of being able to ask for help and guidance. There's even a word for this: "the inverted classroom".

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#38
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of (and I would actually argue most) people are solely there to get a piece of paper which lets them have access to a decent job, and they're paying enormous amounts of money (and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt) to get that piece of paper. For all intents and purposes, they ARE paying for a product, and that's how they view it. College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, and when a s…

> are solely there to get a piece of paper And why should anybody care at all about this disgusting and lowly category? They wanted to game the system, they got what they deserved. > and many times taking on dangerous levels of debt Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all). > College has become a barrier to entry to the job market, In most of…

> Student loans are quite a peculiar form of a debt. They can be largely ignored quite for a while (or ignored at all).

In the US, "ignoring" them results in a large build-up of interest while you defer payments, and the debt is one of the very few things that can't usually be discharged in bankruptcy.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#39
post #13
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not idiots. If you pay half your annual income, you SHOULD expect to get some damn good service for your money. Schools should be free, but seeing how they're not, I see nothing wrong with students demanding their money's worth, and some slack if they fall behind on classwork. People should read Freakonomics.

> They are not idiots. They are indeed. > If you pay half your annual income, you SHOULD expect to get some damn good service for your money. No. This is a blatant consumerism. It does not matter even a tiny bit how much do you pay - 1/2 of your income, 100x your income, whatever. > Schools should be free, Of course, in an ideal world. But we have to deal with what we have and to make sure it's not destroyed beyond a…

No, I refuse to buy lottery tickets.

What we are really seeing here is market forces that make the current university structure -- with its emphasis on research over quality of teaching -- a terrible product, just like a lottery ticket is a terrible product. Smart consumers don't spend £9,000 a year on lottery tickets.

At the moment, the universal desire for a degree from an accredited college is propping up these institutions. But that's going to go away someday.

And in the Information Age, I have plenty of "access to an infrastructure" outside of the university walls. There is not a single thing I learned academically from my pricey MIT degree that I could not have learned by reading textbooks and websites on my own. (And most of the time I did learn that way, better than from lectures.) But I wouldn't have been able to put "MIT graduate" on my resume and I wouldn't have gotten the connections out of it. So that's why I went.

Re: My students have paid £9,000 and now they think they own me

#40
post #10

I am not paying for a "chance to learn". I am paying for a self-professed expert in pedagogy, whose has spend devoted their proffesional life to the art of shoving information into arbitrary people's heads. I go to the doctor because I want a professional with knowledge of diseases to fix my cold, not the crystal homeopathic healer that lurks on the street outside my apartment. Teachers are supposed to be experts at…

If you go to your doctor and say "I have a cold, fix it" then you are going to be disappointed no matter how good your doctor is. ("With proper treatment, a cold will clear up in a week. Without, it may take as much as seven days.")

If you go to your teacher (at whatever level) and say "I want to become expert in your field without either working very hard or having a great deal of natural talent" then you are again going to be disappointed no matter how good the teacher is. ("There is no royal road to mathematics.")

If you go to your doctor and she says "I know what's wrong, and you can fix it by taking these drugs and doing these exercises", and you don't take the drugs or do the exercises, it's hardly the doctor's fault if your condition doesn't improve the way you want it to.

If you go to your teacher (at whatever level) and say "I want good grades without actually mastering the ideas and facts" then yet again you will be disappointed.

In your little list of facts, you may notice that step 3 says "The teacher fails to significantly improve the student's understanding". But improving a student's understanding is a two-person job. A student who does nothing beyond turning up to most of the lectures is not likely to do well in their examinations (exception: in some fields, some outstandingly able students may be able to do this, but by definition most students are not outstandingly able). And if that's what the student does, it's not reasonable to say that the teacher is failing at their job.

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