My positive experience as a woman in tech • Hacker News Board

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#81

Post by marrs » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:41 PM UTC

scintill76 wrote: post #26

avz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing this important point: > His effort to be courteous made me feel that I was different, the odd one out, the one we must be careful around and treat like a fragile flower. We should respect all our colleagues equally regardless of the type of sexual organs they happen to be equipped with (and regardless of other irrelevant characteristics). Singling out one group over others for additional "respect" is w…

And you missed the point of the GP poster. The GP would have apologized for this to anyone he didn't know well. Why would it be GP's fault for "making" someone feel "out of place" by treating them with a certain respect that has nothing to do with any personal characteristics? Her role wasn't "lady" or "engineer", it was "person I don't an F-bomb-level rapport with." At least that's the main point of GP's post. What…

My interpretation of the GP's comment was that he believes the man in the article was simply treating the author with the same common courtesy he treats all women with. My parents' generation used to call this "being a gentleman".

Speaking of my parents, my mother brought me up to always be a gentleman around ladies, which included things like not using bad language. This was quickly drilled out of me when I entered the real world.

Dave Chappelle has an amusing stand-up routine about this subject called "Chivalry is dead, and women killed it"

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#82

Post by gotchange » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:46 PM UTC

DrNuke wrote: post #51

HN is a bubble made of few making it real, mostly in the Bay Area, and a lot of marginal daydreamers from all over the world. For this reason, the mood and the overall narrative is sometimes bizarre: we have a front page with one topic bashing India as corrupt (it may be 90-95% of the planet, actually) and this one where gender (race, age, culture, attitude) does not affect the industry. A bit detached from ordinary…

HN is more of a vanguardia than gatekeepers whether on social or technological change front and that's why these topics appeal to the community and garner a lot of responses and interesting discussions.

Welcome to the community.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#83

Post by sarahnadav » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

I am glad that this woman had a good experience, but it is the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who wants to use this as social proof that gender discrimination isn't a huge problem in the industry is fooling themselves.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#84

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

indifferentalex wrote: post #61

DanBC wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> treat others the way you want to be treated, You've never had a pathological arsehole for a boss?

I'm still studying and have never encountered obstacles set up by people with institutional power over me, so I am to a degree naive and privileged, however I was talking more about the day to day interactions that happen with a myriad of different people, mostly your peers (which apart from a few instances where it was the "bosses of tech" causing the problems, from what I remember reading the sexism usually came fr…

Maybe you should wait until you get in the industry before you start speaking authoritatively about it.

(alternatively, "you're only 15, you don't have a rep yet")

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#85

Post by madaxe_again » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:52 PM UTC

dajohnson89 wrote: post #5

She had me until the very end, with the anecdote about the guy apologizing for swearing in front of her. I would apologize if I said "fuck" near my country's president, or even the president of my small-ish company. Both of whom are male. It's a sign of respect. In the context of women, I see it in a similar light to holding the door open for a lady. It isn't me assuming she's too weak to open a door, it's just a com…

My company has a culture in which we all swear like pirates. This makes this whole question moot. Even the softly spoken polite types end up sounding like they were raised in the gutter by the end of week two.

Additionally, swearing is a social signal that typically bonds people, as it's a "we can say these things together" type affair.

We swear in front of and with clients (not all - there are some where we know it would be a lead balloon). We talk like human fucking beings. Folks tend to find this refreshing, and it results in a more relaxed atmosphere, and more relaxed interpersonal and client relationships.

Franky, if someone is offended by my language, then I see that as strictly their problem, and I won't apologise for it.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#86

Post by FussyZeus » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

sarahnadav wrote: post #83

I am glad that this woman had a good experience, but it is the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who wants to use this as social proof that gender discrimination isn't a huge problem in the industry is fooling themselves.

For goodness sakes, sentence 1 and 2:

"Women speaking up about the sexism they have experienced in tech is great for raising awareness about the issues. However, when no positive stories get out, the overall picture painted is bleak, which could scare even more women away."

And:

"Yes, there are several women who have had terrible experiences, and I’m in no way discounting them."

And:

"Those of us who have had incredibly positive experiences, and have always been treated with nothing but respect. That side’s stories need to be heard too, not silenced out of fear that we will become complacent and stop trying for more equality. Stories like mine should become the norm, not the exception."

Way to miss half the point in the first three paragraphs.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#87

Post by madaxe_again » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

sarahnadav wrote: post #83

I am glad that this woman had a good experience, but it is the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who wants to use this as social proof that gender discrimination isn't a huge problem in the industry is fooling themselves.

Is it, though? I'd be curious to know what if any statistics there are on this - although perception tends to be reality.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#88

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

oneeyedpigeon wrote: post #56

dajohnson89 wrote: post #5

She had me until the very end, with the anecdote about the guy apologizing for swearing in front of her. I would apologize if I said "fuck" near my country's president, or even the president of my small-ish company. Both of whom are male. It's a sign of respect. In the context of women, I see it in a similar light to holding the door open for a lady. It isn't me assuming she's too weak to open a door, it's just a com…

Would you seriously hold a door open for a woman, but not a man? That's ... weird.

Some dudes get really testy about having doors opened for them (which is all the more reason to do it).

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#89

Post by reitanqild » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:55 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #74

That's the general theme of public discourse... Americans killing Muslims in Iraq are "soldiers", wherears Muslims killing Americans in the US are "terrorists". Edit: Looks like I've hit a very sore point...

Did you ever attend military training? I assume no because then you would know that there is a massive difference between somebody in civilian clothes attacking random people and soldiers in uniform and/or with other clearly visible signs that clearly tells they are combatants attacking people who were likely to be dangerous.

That said, there's a lot to say about the notions that "(American) soldiers are good, insurgents are evil"

We fought the nazis in every conceivable way, and although we were "terrorists" and they were proper soldiers we still think of ourselves as the good guys.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#90

Post by erkkie » Fri, Dec 18, 2015, 1:55 PM UTC

mycroft-holmes wrote: post #63

cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

I'd say you're absolutely correct. I laugh when I see feminist friends of mine who complain about "creepy" guys approaching them at coffee shops and days later they'll talk about how they hate being single and want to meet someone.

Those are not mutually exclusive things though, presumably they want to be approached by non-creepy guys (ie ones they happen to like, by whatever measure).

I guess this is just how the human mating game goes. We try to make some things make sense intellectually even though there's probably deeper subconscious and chemical messaging going on.