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The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

theguardian.com

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Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#81

Post by jeremyjh »

marcosdumay wrote: post #70
touchofevil wrote: post #28

I've come to the conclusion over the last several years and specifically after spending a bit of time in India, that corruption is the #1 challenge facing humanity. In the past I believed that poverty was largely due to a lack of resources (food, housing, etc) but I've come to believe that corruption is actually the source of this "lack of resources" -- the resources are most likely not lacking at all, they are proba…

> And parts of the developed world, like the US, are just as corrupt (or more corrupt) than India, only in different and potentially even more damaging ways, like having an election system captured by corporations. I'll just have to disagree. The one thing every single Brazilian comments after traveling to the US or Western Europe is how honest and rule-based everything is. You do have a corruption problem in the US,…

All of our politicians in the U.S. are for sale through perfectly legal means. What we don't tolerate is corruption in the bureaucracies that actually run the state day to day. This is the crucial difference.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#82

Post by johnchristopher »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #66
Rainymood wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons top politicians are paid so well. We can complain about their salary all day long but they make important decisions and a higher salary directly impacts the effectiveness of a bribe.

"This is one of the reasons top politicians are paid so well." Really? That would be a fine reason, but it may have more to do with the amount of power and influence they wield, even over those who determine their salaries.

To be fair it's only a theory. I was told the same by a friend of mine who is a jurist regarding judges salaries that are high on purpose to prevent corruption. "That's the theory" he said. Western Europe.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#83

Post by amag »

lmm wrote: post #54
random_coder wrote: post #23

As an Indian I often wonder, the real question is not why India is so corrupt(esp. at the lower levels of bureaucracy), rather how come certain countries have zero corruption at those levels? Perhaps I'm too pessimistic about human nature.

One interesting thing I saw in toy models is that a small number of incorruptible people (5% or less) can make it very dangerous to be corrupt. As corruption falls there's then a feedback spiral, because most people will report corruption if they're not corrupt themselves. You definitely need a few people who are weird and unreasonable to start it off though. Have you seen the movie Serpico? I thought that gave a goo…

Haven't seen the movie, but I'm not sure you need to be super weird to be that person. I believe the word you are looking for is integrity.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#85

Post by pyvek »

anovikov wrote: post #25
pyvek wrote: post #6

This sort of corruption is still running strong here in India. A few days ago an acquaintance of my father told him that he knows a guy who can get her daughter a government job for a fee of 8 lakhs (~$12,000). And that he would go for it, given he had this much money. The sentiment was that he treats this bribe as an investment, which can be recovered from the job salary in a couple years and is worth it.

this blocks a lot of economic growth because many people consider buying into a government job an investment...

Also that most of the people who buy their way into a government job are most probably incompetent. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy because the ones who themselves bought in their way using corruption are very much likely to repeat the same with others once they are in the government.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#86

Post by amag »

WaylonKenning wrote: post #53
random_coder wrote: post #23

As an Indian I often wonder, the real question is not why India is so corrupt(esp. at the lower levels of bureaucracy), rather how come certain countries have zero corruption at those levels? Perhaps I'm too pessimistic about human nature.

As a New Zealander, any form of corruption is unacceptable. It's just not in the DNA of being a good New Zealander to be corrupt. Therefore, there's great social pressure to not be corrupt. Being corrupt is not celebrated, and I wouldn't show off or discuss it here.

It used to be the same here in Sweden but unfortunately it has started changing for the worse. It's mainly centered around higher up municipal government officials who take bribes to let certain companies win contracts for the municipality. While citizens have yet to bribe the officials we still suffer because of sub-standard products from/work done by companies that "win" the contracts.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#87

Post by ljf »

aianus wrote: post #17
rdtsc wrote: post #14

It is hard for those in Western countries to imagine what it is like to live in a corrupt state like that. Eastern Europe is like that as well. Corruption is a way of life. It starts from bribing the doctor who will deliver the baby, to bribing kindergarten teachers, to high school teachers, paying to cheat on a state exam, buying a driver's license etc, until bribing the cemetery to take make an extra spot for the d…

Having lived in Romania and Vietnam, you learn to appreciate the efficiency of just paying the bribe and getting on with your life. For example, if I get caught speeding I can bribe a cop for like $20 in Eastern Europe or Asia versus losing $1000s in Canada between fines and insurance premium increases. I personally find it a lot less stressful than living in Canada where every time I see a cop I get a little adrenal…

Efficient for you as you can easily (I presume) pay the bribes... but for 99% of people what impact does this have on their life, when they can also end up being forced to pay when they AREN'T breaking the law.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#88

Post by jpatokal »

amag wrote: post #79
NicoJuicy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what i always thought. Many people always think that lower wages for politicians will solve anything ( because they are mostly jealous) I don't think it does

I lived in Thailand when the now deposed Thaksin Shinawatras party Thai Rak Thai won the election in 2001. I remember many Thais saying he was the ideal PM because he was the richest man in Thailand and because he was the richest man, he would never be corrupted. Fast-forward five years and the military deposed him because of his corrupt politics. As long as you have a salary you can support yourself and your family…

"Corruption" had nothing to do with it, the military deposed Thaksin because his politics threatened the interests of the royalty/army axis that has ruled Thailand since approximately forever.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#89

Post by alistairSH »

Rainymood wrote: post #64
rdtsc wrote: post #14

It is hard for those in Western countries to imagine what it is like to live in a corrupt state like that. Eastern Europe is like that as well. Corruption is a way of life. It starts from bribing the doctor who will deliver the baby, to bribing kindergarten teachers, to high school teachers, paying to cheat on a state exam, buying a driver's license etc, until bribing the cemetery to take make an extra spot for the d…

This is one of the reasons top politicians are paid so well. We can complain about their salary all day long but they make important decisions and a higher salary directly impacts the effectiveness of a bribe.

Are you in the US? Even at the federal levels, politicians' salaries aren't particularly high, relative to what those same people could earn in the private sector.

Congressmen earn $174,000. That's not a huge amount for a group that largely consists of successful lawyers, with a smattering of doctors and other businessmen. Many of them are millionaires before they take office.

The governor of my state (Virginia) is paid $175,000. Again, pretty good money. But, the current governor, Terry McAuliffe, was a successful banker and real estate developer prior to entering politics.

And, as noted in a sibling comment, the real problem isn't corrupt politicians. Corrupt bureaucrats are a much worse problem for an average citizen's day to day life. And those bureaucrats are not paid anywhere near as well as the politicians.

Re: The mystery of India’s deadly exam scam

#90

Post by nish1500 »

I grew up and spent most of my life in Madhya Pradesh. I know some of the people mentioned in the article. I never thought things would get out in the open, and arrests will be made. That was a good sign.

There is more to it. I doubt the practices will stop. The cases will be dismissed, and the accused will walk free soon.

Chief Minister's role in the scandal is downplayed.

Corruption in India is worse than what this article wants you to believe.

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