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My positive experience as a woman in tech

lea.verou.me

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Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#41

Post by meowface »

swombat wrote: post #28
avz wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing this important point: > His effort to be courteous made me feel that I was different, the odd one out, the one we must be careful around and treat like a fragile flower. We should respect all our colleagues equally regardless of the type of sexual organs they happen to be equipped with (and regardless of other irrelevant characteristics). Singling out one group over others for additional "respect" is w…

Why can't she be treated as both simultaneously? Why does treatment as an "engineer" require the abolition of her "lady" role? Are the two roles not compatible? I personally thing it is more sexist to try and deny gender differences than simply recognise them and deal with people respectfully. I find the implication that the only way to not be sexist is to treat everyone as gender neutral disturbing.

Why is it generally okay to swear in front of men but generally not okay to swear in front of women? That's a pretty sexist, and condescending, point of view.

Sure, there are gender differences. But I don't think "genetic vulnerability to profanity" is one of them.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#42

Post by lifeisstillgood »

smikhanov wrote: post #21
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #6

Sexism is not "over-rated" OECD's Social Institutions and Gender Index Is at http://www.genderindex.org , and is a litany of baked in prejudice, violence, lack of access to education, lack of access to property and other normal legal rights. When we compare the lot of a 16 yo girl in Rwanda to a High schooler in SF, yes it is hard to find where the High schooler is having problems, but we just have to look at the rat…

When we compare the lot of a 16 yo girl in Rwanda to a High schooler in SF, yes it is hard to find where the High schooler is having problems, but... You should have stopped at this "but". Do you seriously think that it's reasonable to put into the same basket the girls' problems in Rwanda and girls' problems in modern San Francisco?

No it's not reasonable - that's the point. The OP came up with "sexism is overrated" - I wanted to point out that if you are a girl in large parts of the world that's a frankly laughable statement. It is also wrong in modern western world, but not to the same degree - but it is still measurably wrong to think sexism is over rated.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#43

Post by worldsayshi »

daleharvey wrote: post #38

It really isnt surprising this is pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page. Lea is obviously a talented and confident person and it is great that she has had such a positive experience. Entirely agree that she can and should share it. It is however sadly predictable that the comments on HN lean very much towards self congratulatory 'gender discrimina…

But this article doesn't really say or support that "there is no problem". Rather that it's sort of important to have both carrots and sticks. Having just one of them will entirely kill the motivation of doing anything about it.

edit: It's quite possible that I misread what you are trying to say here...

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#44

Post by varjag »

daleharvey wrote: post #38

It really isnt surprising this is pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page. Lea is obviously a talented and confident person and it is great that she has had such a positive experience. Entirely agree that she can and should share it. It is however sadly predictable that the comments on HN lean very much towards self congratulatory 'gender discrimina…

We must be reading different editions of HN, because I see them here regularly.

The GitHub CoC related stuff alone had the frontpage several times.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#45

Post by lifeisstillgood »

meowface wrote: post #39
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #6

Sexism is not "over-rated" OECD's Social Institutions and Gender Index Is at http://www.genderindex.org , and is a litany of baked in prejudice, violence, lack of access to education, lack of access to property and other normal legal rights. When we compare the lot of a 16 yo girl in Rwanda to a High schooler in SF, yes it is hard to find where the High schooler is having problems, but we just have to look at the rat…

>OECD's Social Institutions and Gender Index Is at http://www.genderindex.org , and is a litany of baked in prejudice, violence, lack of access to education, lack of access to property and other normal legal rights. You have me. >When we compare the lot of a 16 yo girl in Rwanda to a High schooler in SF, yes it is hard to find where the High schooler is having problems, but we just have to look at the ratio of men an…

Evidence of an employment ratio difference, or even a wage gap (without careful controlling of as many variables as possible), is not necessarily evidence of sexism.

Yeah it is. Hear hooves, think horses, don't try too hard to eliminate zebras.

EDIT: I am one the many reasons women don't like working (in tech). Friends of mine are at work, overly enthusiastic when engaging with female colleagues - nothing overt, nothing offensive, but noticeable. Smarmy perhaps. It's something most women at work seem to accept as normal if distasteful. I am reasonably certain I am on the smary spectrum. Problem is I don't tell my friends, so they don't tell me.

And the fact that it has taken me till my forties to have sufficent self- knowledge indicates the world is full of guys like me - and that's not a world I want my daughters to work in.

Edit2: perhaps a simpler approach - I get fed up watching people demand incontrovertible proof that they are part of the problem. If there are climate change deniers, there are sexism-is-a-problem deniers.

(Yes of course the two problems are not of same magnitude, but the psychological issues at play are the same)

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#46

Post by golergka »

daleharvey wrote: post #38

It really isnt surprising this is pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page. Lea is obviously a talented and confident person and it is great that she has had such a positive experience. Entirely agree that she can and should share it. It is however sadly predictable that the comments on HN lean very much towards self congratulatory 'gender discrimina…

> pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page

WTF?

There have been dozens of articles about gender discrimination on HN front page, and comments have always been supportive.

In what alternate reality do you live?

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#47

Post by DanBC »

golergka wrote: post #46
daleharvey wrote: post #38

It really isnt surprising this is pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page. Lea is obviously a talented and confident person and it is great that she has had such a positive experience. Entirely agree that she can and should share it. It is however sadly predictable that the comments on HN lean very much towards self congratulatory 'gender discrimina…

> pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page WTF? There have been dozens of articles about gender discrimination on HN front page, and comments have always been supportive. In what alternate reality do you live?

> and comments have always been supportive.

There's a sizable minority of HN commenters who deny sexism exists.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#48

Post by golergka »

> It’s impossible to know, especially since they don’t know either! If you confront them on their sexism, they will deny all of it, and truly believe it. It takes a lot of introspection to see one’s internalized stereotypes. Therefore, a lot of the time, you cannot be sure if you have experienced sexist behavior, and there is no way to find out for sure, since the perpetrator doesn’t know either. There are many false positives and false negatives there.

Thousand times this.

I know that things like racism and sexism is bad and evil. But I also know that I am these things — subconsciously. Having lived in a country with a long tradition of racism and sexism, and given I've ever talked to a black person for a first time half a year ago, I know that there's no chance that I don't have these stereotypes inside on some level. Of course, I try to fight that and become a better person, and on a rational level I know exactly why these traits are evil.

But when I'm trying to explain it to someone, too often they just hear "I'm racist" or "I'm sexist" and decide that I'm a total asshole :(

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#49

Post by SeanDav »

daleharvey wrote: post #38

It really isnt surprising this is pretty much the only article about gender discrimination that is allowed to be on the hacker news front page. Lea is obviously a talented and confident person and it is great that she has had such a positive experience. Entirely agree that she can and should share it. It is however sadly predictable that the comments on HN lean very much towards self congratulatory 'gender discrimina…

Almost all problems with gender discrimination in tech that get my attention, originated here in HN. I seriously doubt that the majority of the HN community would in any way be in favour of sweeping gender issues under the carpet.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#50

Post by hahamrfunnyguy »

Glad to hear the positive side of this. I can't say I've encountered any negative behavior in the course of my career that I would consider sexism.

I typically avoid crude humor and innuendo in the workplace because it's impossible to know who is going to get offended. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if I was more even more cautious around women lest something be construed as harassment.

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