I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views • Hacker News Board

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#201

Post by druddha » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:29 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #189

druddha wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In the US, its generally should, since its pretty blatantly illegal in virtually every case A law that cannot be enforced isn't really a law. Making a case for religious discrimination is difficult. And the subject of this thread revolves around whether discriminating based on beliefs should be allowed. If you worked at Bain Capital and openly supported Bernie Sanders, would you be surprised to not get promotes? > T…

> A law that cannot be enforced isn't really a law. Making a case for religious discrimination is difficult. To the extent that it is difficult to enforce, it is because it is difficult to know when it has occurred. But, that doesn't reduce the surprise one should have when one discovers that it has occurred, because that means that it is one of the cases where the problems that usually exist with discovering that it…

Surprise is subjective and I think my analogy is apt.

> Religious beliefs in general are not incompatible with skepticism on questions within the domain of science;

I disagree. The Bible explicitly attempts to provide explanations for the order of the natural world.

> some specific religious beliefs may be incompatible with skepticism in some areas of scientific inquiry, but, again, that's different than the generality posed.

How so? This sounds like a restatement of my original point: "Those beliefs may limit your capacity to effectively perform your job."

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#202

Post by xupybd » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:29 AM UTC

Anyone else notice, that an article about assumptions made based on political views immediately stirred up religious arguments. Why does one have to be religious to be on the right and non-religious to be on the left?

(I'm not from the USA so maybe this is an American thing?)

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#203

Post by stefantalpalaru » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:30 AM UTC

druddha wrote: post #154

engi_nerd wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly? I've worked with so many absolutely brilliant people who had beliefs in other areas of life that I found baffling and confusing that I would just shrug and file that away as an eccentricity.

Being brilliant doesn't necessarily make you a good scientist. Skepticism is a core quality of being a scientist. Believing in something without proof is contrary to being skeptical. Thus, believing in god or Elvis are anti-scientific beliefs.

> Believing in something without proof is contrary to being skeptical.

You underestimate the number of scientists with absurd beliefs.

There are people who believe in parallel universes, dark matter, spooky action at a distance, wormholes, time travel, simulating the human brain in silico, more than 3 spatial dimensions, strong artificial intelligence, aliens, etc.

Dealing with the absurd is a fundamental part of the human experience, and those denying this are only kidding themselves. See for example the atheists who give in to the absurd, semi-religious, arguments for the existence of life on other planets in the absence of any proof at all.

We're never free of absurd beliefs, we just find new ways to have them. The trick is to separate belief from fact when doing science and only draw conclusions from the latter.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#204

Post by FussyZeus » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:30 AM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #66

FussyZeus wrote: post #5

As someone who grew up in a strongly red area and with beliefs in that vein, I know EXACTLY the kind of exclusion that the author is talking about to a painful degree. For anyone who wants to experience it, walk into any Reddit discussion and tell everyone you're a devout Christian and watch the pseudo intellectuals exercise their "openness." And yes it's true I'm far from the most religious person there is, and I st…

It's amazing to me that the top-rated comment in this thread broadly generalizes both "coastal intellectuals" and "Middle America" with insulting stereotypes. I'm embarrassed that the upvoters of this comment actually agreed with this comment. One trip to Houston or Minneapolis is enough to verify the presence of a thriving arts and culture scene. The anti-intellectual Middle America trope is not factual. One trip to…

> It's amazing to me that the top-rated comment in this thread broadly generalizes both "coastal intellectuals" and "Middle America" with insulting stereotypes.

It's amazing to me that you took this (what you've recognized as) hyperbole'd and obviously emotionally filled post and assumed this is how I act in daily life, a point which I didn't feel I needed to make but apparently must do so is that of course I do not dismiss everyone from a coastal area as being a pseudo intellectual. That doesn't stop the majority of them from proving to be exactly that, but you know, I do try.

FTR, I never once intended to insult the midwest. I prefer it here, and that may well be simply because I've never lived anywhere else.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#205

Post by xupybd » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:31 AM UTC

druddha wrote: post #154

engi_nerd wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly? I've worked with so many absolutely brilliant people who had beliefs in other areas of life that I found baffling and confusing that I would just shrug and file that away as an eccentricity.

Being brilliant doesn't necessarily make you a good scientist. Skepticism is a core quality of being a scientist. Believing in something without proof is contrary to being skeptical. Thus, believing in god or Elvis are anti-scientific beliefs.

I'm pretty sure there is overwhelming evidence that Elvis did exist.

Edit (you edited the post, now my joke makes no sense :( )

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#206

Post by wdmeldon » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:31 AM UTC

jolux wrote: post #151

"Why would they? There's been lots of noise lately about how conservatives don't respect science or the intellectual sphere. Why would they? They know we're politically biased." This is where it took a turn for me. I'm basically in agreement with everything else, and it's personally eye opening to gain a greater understanding of these kinds of biases, but when you take a few bad apples in the social sciences (literal…

This post almost entirely reinforces the article. The lefts tendency to treat "undereducated" people like they are children is in no way helpful.

> blinkered bourgeois liberals who are also big fans of Austrian economics

This is the icing on the proving the point cake.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#207

Post by FussyZeus » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:32 AM UTC

fromMars wrote: post #51

I grew up in a red state, too, and as an atheist, I got tired of being told I was going to hell by peers and forced to pray at school events. As such, I have a lot of Christian friends but, it is understandable that some "intellectuals" are hostile to those with strong religious beliefs given that many with similar beliefs deny scientific concepts like evolution, advocate teaching creationism in schools, and deny the…

It is not any more understandable for you to dismiss a religious person as less intelligent than you than it is for a religious person to assume you're going to hell for being Athiest.

Stop trying to justify your prejudices. Two wrongs, etc. etc.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#208

Post by defen » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:35 AM UTC

jolux wrote: post #151

"Why would they? There's been lots of noise lately about how conservatives don't respect science or the intellectual sphere. Why would they? They know we're politically biased." This is where it took a turn for me. I'm basically in agreement with everything else, and it's personally eye opening to gain a greater understanding of these kinds of biases, but when you take a few bad apples in the social sciences (literal…

> They dislike point blank denial of facts such as that of human-caused climate change perpetuated mostly by conservative think tanks and consumed by an undereducated population of people who legitimately don't know better.

The left disregards science when it suits their politics as well, e.g. IQ - https://twitter.com/sapinker/status/645301814955388930

Regarding the opposites-list - just because someone doesn't consider himself an "ingenious, deep thinker" doesn't mean he thinks he's a dumb, shallow thinker. It's all relative - who or what are you comparing yourself to? Compared to Steven Pinker, I'm a dumb, shallow thinker. Compared to the average American, I'm probably ingenious, a deep thinker. The statement as given is not quantifiable on a 1-5 scale.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#209

Post by FussyZeus » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:36 AM UTC

BellsOnSunday wrote: post #79

FussyZeus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who does: Those of us who do are often raised in a very religious place among very religious people, it's a big part of our lives. Rationally, I have no reason to believe in any God. That's why it's called a belief. It's a lot more to do with the culture one grows up with than the belief itself, and anything you learn at such a young age is difficult to shake loose of completely. Personally, I use…

I was brought up amongst and by religious people too, so I don't automatically assume people are stupid for having beliefs. But I'm aware that is really just a rhetorical position on my part, and when faced with someone who claims to be a scientist, living in the west in the 21st century, and who actually believes this stuff (e.g. the afterlife) then it is just difficult to take them seriously. That makes me vulnerab…

I don't know your familiarity with the Bible, but there's nothing in it that tells us to not seek knowledge, there is nothing in it that tells us never to question creation. The way I look at it: If a God did indeed create us, and intended us to be his savage servants for life, he wouldn't have created us with a mind capable of excelling beyond that state.

I don't want to get into a huge theological thing, my policy on this is always the same: You do you, I'll do me, and we'll get along fine. If we get to a point where we can find out what the afterlife is, if it exists, then we can re-evaluate beliefs at that point, but I don't think we're anywhere close to that, so until then I'll keep my faith and all I ask is the respect that anyone else would deserve.

Re: I was denied admission to a PhD program because of my perceived political views

#210

Post by rdancer » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 1:36 AM UTC

mrow84 wrote: post #50

FussyZeus wrote: post #5

As someone who grew up in a strongly red area and with beliefs in that vein, I know EXACTLY the kind of exclusion that the author is talking about to a painful degree. For anyone who wants to experience it, walk into any Reddit discussion and tell everyone you're a devout Christian and watch the pseudo intellectuals exercise their "openness." And yes it's true I'm far from the most religious person there is, and I st…

I'd be interested in hearing if anyone from the UK with a background like this has had a similar experience of prejudice (beyond what I would consider to be background level "you're different"-type feelings). I am always quite shocked to hear of how strong the divide appears to be in the US between, loosely, "religious conservatives" and "non-religious liberals". I've spent approximately zero time in the US, so I can…

The divisions here run along the class and cultural heritage lines. You live and work mostly with your peers, but interact with people from outside your groups a lot. The population density is much higher in UK (and Europe in general), and we have a lot of migration, so it is difficult to construct a boogeyman out of a whole cloth.

I would think that people feel that the way outgroups go about their lives is bonkers, but that most of the ingroup people are crazy in their own right.