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LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

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Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#111
post #100
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the feeling that if continued in that direction it will be mostly a poor VNC clone.

I regularly use Microsoft Remote Desktop in full color mode over 3G from the UK against a machine hosted outside Paris, as an example of what's possible given enough effort, RDP is a bastion of pure awesomeness. I have on many occasions failed to notice I'm running gvim on the remote box compared to a local VM on my laptop. In full screen mode they're practically indiscernible if you aren't paying attention to the la…

RDP doesn't have to be heavily integrated into the OS. VirtualBox uses RDP for remote display of guests regardless of OS [0]. There are a number of servers for Linux that implement RDP.

[0] https://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch07.html

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the "standardization" process itself was effectively politics, not technology. All standardization processes are politics, pretty much by definition; defining a spec is technical, agreeing to a standard is political. Not to say that the standardization of OOXML wasn't a particularly bad outcome, but "bad" vs. "good" is a different distinction than "politics" vs. "technical". > By contrast, there are multiple indepe…

> All standardization processes are politics, pretty much by definition; defining a spec is technical, agreeing to a standard is political. Little to no "defining" went on in the OOXML process, hence my use of the phrase "rubber-stamped". What little did take place seems to have been limited to adding more documentation for dangling references to undocumented bits, such as some of the "compatibility" options. And no,…

> The standard should be seeking the best solution to a problem, not the one best aligned with any particular party's best interests.

1. That is a rather idealistic view of the world. Standards are typically set by committees comprised of multiple parties, and all entities have an agenda. Sometimes its self-interest, sometimes it's just something like "all things being equal, we prefer doing things this way", but it undoubtedly influences the outcome.

2. Regarding OOXML, maybe the actual problem could be stated as, "the vast majority of the world's official documentation is in a proprietary format and we want to make it open in a way that doesn't inconvenience the millions of users of the existing files, because otherwise nobody would use the new format." Regardless of whether there were dirty politics, what would the best solution to that look like?

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#114
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I regularly use Microsoft Remote Desktop in full color mode over 3G from the UK against a machine hosted outside Paris, as an example of what's possible given enough effort, RDP is a bastion of pure awesomeness. I have on many occasions failed to notice I'm running gvim on the remote box compared to a local VM on my laptop. In full screen mode they're practically indiscernible if you aren't paying attention to the la…

RDP doesn't have to be heavily integrated into the OS. VirtualBox uses RDP for remote display of guests regardless of OS [0]. There are a number of servers for Linux that implement RDP. [0] https://www.virtualbox.org/manual/ch07.html

Yes, RDP is almost certainly a perfect superset of the VNC model -- unless VirtualBox's graphics drivers do tons of magic, chances are high that all its RDP server has to work with is a constantly changing bitmap to send differences for. AFAIK (and from anecdotal experience) Windows RDP beats that by a long shot (e.g. can preserve the semantics of Bitblt GDI calls and suchlike)

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#115
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oh yeah, there will always be a place. But that's not what really matters, but the size of that place. Cloud-based productivity systems can replace native apps for over 90% of all corporate functions (marketing, HR, sales, etc.). Or that's what those that built them think. Then they found out performance and latency make it a non starter, and those "10% of features" that people use from Word, Powerpoint etc, are no…

I haven't used a desktop document or spreadsheet in years. The argument that a couple of missing features, or ones that are somewhat sluggish over a bad network connection, will prevent widespread adoption of cloud-based products is completely ignoring the huge benefits of cloud-based systems. In short: Calling Google docs a "non-starter" seems like a difficult position to defend. It's already in use by millions of p…

It's a non starter in many use cases. There's no support for ODBC so you can't connect your spreadsheet to the internal BI servers, conditional formatting is really weak in Google sheets (no data bars, etc.), you can't have spreadsheets that refer to other spreadsheets, docs has awful formatting options, etc.

It's just the same thing as comparing nano to emacs/vim. Sure, they both superficially edit text, but that's where the comparison ends.

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#116
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> implying that watching youtube in 1080p is not easier in third world countries compared to first world... (looking at you Europe).

I though Europe had much better access to fast and cheap Internet compared to USA? Lowest offering from my ISP is 100/10 for around $16. No problems with HD video. Especially not with Youtube's interpretation of HD.

Europe is made of many independent countries with different regulations and different operators.

In France it's €30 for triple-play, €20 for Internet only, but less than 50% have access to optical fiber. For more than half it's still ADSL. It works great if you live close to the telephone exchange, otherwise it can be very slow.

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All standardization processes are politics, pretty much by definition; defining a spec is technical, agreeing to a standard is political. Little to no "defining" went on in the OOXML process, hence my use of the phrase "rubber-stamped". What little did take place seems to have been limited to adding more documentation for dangling references to undocumented bits, such as some of the "compatibility" options. And no,…

> The standard should be seeking the best solution to a problem, not the one best aligned with any particular party's best interests. 1. That is a rather idealistic view of the world. Standards are typically set by committees comprised of multiple parties, and all entities have an agenda. Sometimes its self-interest, sometimes it's just something like "all things being equal, we prefer doing things this way", but it…

> 1. That is a rather idealistic view of the world. Standards are typically set by committees comprised of multiple parties, and all entities have an agenda. Sometimes its self-interest, sometimes it's just something like "all things being equal, we prefer doing things this way", but it undoubtedly influences the outcome.

Certainly; however, making any such change needs to come with arguments that convince others and drive towards consensus, rather than political machinations to manufacture consensus.

When someone proposes a change software project, they doubtless have some reason for proposing that change. However, projects don't typically pay attention to reasons like "we need this change to support our product", or "this makes our internal processes easier", or "without this change our business model collapses". And they certainly don't accept arguments like "if you ignore what's wrong with this patch, I'll [insert reciprocation here]". A change has to come with arguments for why it's the right thing for the project, not just why it's the right thing for the person proposing the patch.

> 2. Regarding OOXML, maybe the actual problem could be stated as, "the vast majority of the world's official documentation is in a proprietary format and we want to make it open in a way that doesn't inconvenience the millions of users of the existing files, because otherwise nobody would use the new format." Regardless of whether there were dirty politics, what would the best solution to that look like?

Treat the old binary document format and representation as the legacy format it was, without giving it a veneer of "standardization". Add features and capabilities to the existing ODF standard, rather than creating a new competing one; likewise, in the various sub-formats, pay attention to existing standards rather than inventing new ones. Migrate to that format as the native format, not just as an export mechanism. Discourage people from saving in the old binary formats. Provide the rendering engine and parsing code of the old office suite as an Open Source library to handle legacy documents. Provide migration tools that actually cross-check things like pagination with the legacy document renderer, to confirm the fidelity of the conversion; collaboratively improve those tools until they achieve maximum fidelity on all available documents. Then, people can migrate new or edited documents with reasonable fidelity, get perfect fidelity for historical documents, and interchange documents with no compatibility issues.

That would not necessarily serve the goals of any one office suite vendor, but it would help move the world's documents to an open, standard, interchangeable format.

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#118

This is wasted effort IMHO. The killer app of Office is Excel and NOTHING has come close to replacing it. In India, almost all laptop manufacturers give the option of preloaded Ubuntu. Yet people choose to pay for Windows - for either Excel or Photoshop. I would pay a large sum of money for a compatible spreadsheet. It is well worth doing a startup around. Everything else - Word or PowerPoint already has reasonable s…

Although you're not wrong. Excel is the killer app. Word is ALSO the killer app for heavy lifting writing papers etc. It's the program I suffered the least in during my uni years, and I tried them ___ALL___.

As an investment analyst for VC, I also need to make A LOT of powerpoint presentations. Not a lot of slides, but I need to convey complex points in a short amount of slides. This makes me push Powerpoint to its limits and it also comes with no REAL competition elsewhere, I've tried __every alternative__. Nothing comes close to the robustness of MS Office, unfortunately.

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#119
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't used a desktop document or spreadsheet in years. The argument that a couple of missing features, or ones that are somewhat sluggish over a bad network connection, will prevent widespread adoption of cloud-based products is completely ignoring the huge benefits of cloud-based systems. In short: Calling Google docs a "non-starter" seems like a difficult position to defend. It's already in use by millions of p…

It's a non starter in many use cases. There's no support for ODBC so you can't connect your spreadsheet to the internal BI servers, conditional formatting is really weak in Google sheets (no data bars, etc.), you can't have spreadsheets that refer to other spreadsheets, docs has awful formatting options, etc. It's just the same thing as comparing nano to emacs/vim. Sure, they both superficially edit text, but that's…

OK, so it's not competitive for some use cases today. Nothing prevents implementation of any of those features, or an evolution away from needing those specific features and replacing them with other features. You mention ODBC, which is a cool feature for some folks, but desktop spreadsheets can't readily hook up to a form on the web, which Google docs can. There are powerful new functionalities provided by web-based apps, and in many cases, those new functionalities trump the old ones.

To argue that what is true today will remain true effectively forever is to ignore the entire history of computing. Desktop applications won't win in the end. Every time a credible web-based alternative has arisen, it has won and destroyed the old way of doing things. So much so that we forget old ways even existed. In a decade I'll be surprised if there is still a desktop version of Office even still in development. There will be web-based versions that work without Internet access, but there won't be a version you "install" on your client machine. I'd bet it'll be sooner for most people, but there will remain outliers for several years beyond which there is a good business case for sticking with Office installed on each users machine.

Re: LibreOffice as a service offers alternative to Google Docs, Office 365

#120
post #92

My company did this back in 2000 using StarOffice which was the precursor to LibreOffice (via OpenOffice). Some screenshots[1]. What's interesting is that the numbers don't add up - it's hard to make a profit even at high subscription rates when you have to pay for all the hardware involved. Anyway, I hope they know what they're doing. [1] https://rwmj.wordpress.com/2014/03/26/officemaster/#content

Previous news reports posit this work as part of Collabora's deal with .gov.uk.

The thing they're offering up is a downloadable VM for you to play with. Something you could actually set up an in-office version of; something that people can use and report bugs on.

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