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Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

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Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#51

Post by mabcat »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #42

I'm kind of suspicious that according to the article the same factory is making 'bad' pens for China and 'good' pens for export. I'm no expert on process improvements, but it would generally seem that once the cost to create the good pens has been spent, it would be relatively cheap to apply them to both product lines. Which suggests either they intentionally use cheaper parts (cheaper ink?) on one line, or they have…

The example in the article is that export pens get twice as much QA time (two test clicks instead of one test click) which involves twice the QA labour cost as for domestic-market pens. Same components, different process.

More generally I've had products manufactured in China for sale in Australia, and they certainly had more expensive parts than products assembled on the same line for sale into China. Never in a million years would the domestic units have passed certification for sale in Australia. So you just keep slotting in more expensive, higher-spec parts until the unit's safe and saleable.

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#52

Post by nibnib »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #42

I'm kind of suspicious that according to the article the same factory is making 'bad' pens for China and 'good' pens for export. I'm no expert on process improvements, but it would generally seem that once the cost to create the good pens has been spent, it would be relatively cheap to apply them to both product lines. Which suggests either they intentionally use cheaper parts (cheaper ink?) on one line, or they have…

Their sophisticated binning is clicking the pens to make sure they work. Export markets get an extra click.

Presumably some factories don't do any testing or binning and just let the defects through (for the domestic product).

This is a great insight into labour costs in China for manufacturing at these kind of scales: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4364

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#53

Post by seanmcdirmid »

something2324 wrote: post #49
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definitely places where China over achieves, and food is one of them. Also, while the architects might have OCD, the migrant construction workers making 10 Kuai an hour do not...which probably drives the architect to tears. My wife is a UX designer who has the same problem with low end developers. The quality is there, but it can only go as far as the weakest link.

Ehhh, I don't buy it's simple a wage/motivation issue You know cheap immigrant labor in the US also makes squat and they don't do generally do a shabby job. The issue is that no one is held to a high standard here. In the US if you do a sloppy job you'll get fired and they'll find someone who can do it better for the same horrible wage. Here "average" work is expected an no one really seems to mind (as long as "it ge…

Immigrant labor in the states isn't paid 10 Kuai an hour, and the American government isn't so worried about a peasant uprising that they would want to keep all the low skilled labor particularly busy. To the CCP, however, the construction industry is just a big jobs program for farmers who can't find enough work in the country side, hence the heavy use of concrete (easy to work with) and overbuilt buildings that feel dated just after a few years.

Believe me, people care, but the emphasis on low wages and work that just passes a low bar drives them crazy. I have to listen about my wife complain about this every night. I thankfully work for an American company but even then, things like a reactive approach to facilities maintnence drive me bonkers. It is simply about wages. If you go to Singapore, or Taiwan, or Hong Kong, you'll see similar cultures with much better results.

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#54

Post by voltagex_ »

something2324 wrote: post #45
voltagex_ wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll have to get a decline in purchasing first.

??? The demand for pens is pretty elastic. If pens all cost $10 then people would be more careful with them and fewer of them would end up throw away

If pens cost $10, someone would come out with a $9 pen and the cycle would start again.

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#55

Post by ZeroGravitas »

mabcat wrote: post #51
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #42

I'm kind of suspicious that according to the article the same factory is making 'bad' pens for China and 'good' pens for export. I'm no expert on process improvements, but it would generally seem that once the cost to create the good pens has been spent, it would be relatively cheap to apply them to both product lines. Which suggests either they intentionally use cheaper parts (cheaper ink?) on one line, or they have…

The example in the article is that export pens get twice as much QA time (two test clicks instead of one test click) which involves twice the QA labour cost as for domestic-market pens. Same components, different process. More generally I've had products manufactured in China for sale in Australia, and they certainly had more expensive parts than products assembled on the same line for sale into China. Never in a mil…

As I said, I'm no expert, but an extra click in the QA process doesn't seem to account for domestic pens being of famously bad quality.

They're coming off the same production line, so if an unusual amount of pens were failing after the second click, then either they bin lots of pens intended for export and allow lots of broken pens to ship domestically, or they fix the problem on the line, and both sets of pens get better as a result.

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#56

Post by rm445 »

I put it to you that pens are intrinsically difficult for quality of production systems. Their nature (portable, lose-able, lend-able, steal-able) calls out for cheapness and disposability. Their size and ergonomics call out for precision manufacturing, but the materials must be cheap and plentiful. The measure of a good pen is often its durability, which is difficult to test for in production. The purchasing chain is incentivised for cost not quality - most pens are not bought by their users.

I think this is an almost unbeatable combination - I think we'll be shaking and scribbling cheap giveaway ballpoints for the forseeable future. Even if you buy good pens you'll probably be put in this situation in daily life from time to time, unless you're VERY careful about carrying a good pen everywhere and never lending it out.

The good news is that they can be used as a kind of bellweather. When cheap pens are good pens, you'll know a culture of quality has been arrived at in manufacturing systems for basic products.

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#57

Post by keithpeter »

eyko wrote: post #34
keithpeter wrote: post #26

>> Next, it was the machine tool CEO’s turn. “There are two things that only Chinese people can make,” explained Guan Xiyou, CEO of Shenyang Machine Tool Group, “The first is fireworks. The second? Folding fans. Foreigners still can’t make a good folding fan." I'd add the humble wooden handled iron/steel wok to the list. The local Chinese shops have them for about £6 to £7. Look after one (wash promptly, oil lightly…

I doubt you've used them for decades but yeah, they last long for £6. Usually the handle will break though (I've gone through 3 of them in the last decade although they're quite sturdy). The wok itself is still perfect (but then again, for £10 at most I can get a new one, and I can't be bothered with fixing the handle.

OK you are right, 12 years and counting (bought one when I moved in here). Perhaps we are less emphatic than you in our jiggling of the stir frying veg?

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#58

Post by dTal »

fractallyte wrote: post #24
civilian wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a lefty, cursive can stay dead.

That's because you're writing incorrectly! The sinistrous among us should be writing right-to-left. Yeah, OK, so most people may need a mirror to read it - but it's natural for you. Aside: the world is terribly 'right biased'. With all the other individualist movements of our era, why not a 'Sinistra Liberation Front' or something similar...?

Kind of off-topic, but it might interest you to learn that adults are left-hemispace biased - consistently, we tend to scan the left side of our field of vision first, and in video games preferentially shoot at targets on our left. This holds true to a surprising degree across all the potential causes people have thought to test for so far - lefties do it, people in countries where they drive on the other side, people in countries where they read right-to-left...

So, while I'm sure the world is annoyingly biased against lefties, not all of the asymmetry you see is because of handedness.

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#59

Post by anabis »

something2324 wrote: post #44

I'm going to a bit culturally insensitive, but I've been living in China for the past 2 months and I'm convinced they have a huge cultural barrier that makes them absolutely incapable of creating high quality goods. I was told there is even a Chinese saying that amounts to "the average and not more" You can even see this in San Francisco. Go to a chinese restaurant on Clement. The food will be amazing, but the window…

Reminded me of the difference in airplane refueling.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2007/11/-quot-...

Re: Why can't China make a good ballpoint pen?

#60

Post by anabis »

ci5er wrote: post #22
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #5

I buy my pens from Muji, they are made in China and Thailand, mainly, and they tend to be very good quality (Muji charges at least 8 kuai for a pen, often 20 or 30 kuai). It is simply a matter of you get what you pay for (i.e. 便宜没好货，好货不便宜).

Ha! In Japanese "Muji" ('no mark', literally 'no character') is short for "Mujirushi Ryohin" ('unbranded goods'). It's odd that someone would take this on as a brand name. And makes me have to ask: Are you sure that this is a brand name? (It may well be - I just don't know of it) So, at the high-end, these are about the same price as a Uniball Vision Roller or the like (which are made by Mitsubishi Pencil, if I recal…

As a Japanese, I recognize it as a brand. Bit snobbish naming I admit.
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