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-2000 Lines of Code (2004)

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Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#61

Post by starmole »

wdewind wrote: post #18
mgkimsal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The justification they told me was that they weren't going to give me a 20K raise if I wasn't making that much right now Even after 20+ years in the labor force, I've never understood that justification. "I'm a nosy bastard" at least has a ring of truth to it.

Don't be so literal about it. I used to get defensive about that question too, but the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making, they are asking you to start the salary negotiation so they can get a feel for what it's going to take to hire you and describe you adequately to a hiring manager. It's just an opportunity for you both to ballpark the situation and eject early if there's going to be a wide di…

Totally agree.

Getting a salary ballpark out early can save both sides a lot of time.

As a potential employee it's important to phrase it right as "If you are not going to pay at least X we are wasting our time". Where X does not need to be your current salary - but really what would be least it would take for you to work there.

If they insist on current salary be firm on X. Point out that this is based on what it would take you to consider them, and you are already taking into account a lot of factors like company prestige, type of work, location, lost options etc.

It is important to realize that you are not giving away any negotiating power by putting out a lower bound. One easy trick is to mention that you are also talking to other companies that already agreed to the same lower bound.

Also do not ask for or let them tell you an upper bound from the hiring company. If they end up really wanting you it will be harder for them to change that.

Getting a lower bound will help both parties. An upper bound you do not walk away from will hurt your position a bit though.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#62

Post by starmole »

This story is about how useless LOC is as a metric.

But negative LOC alone is just as useless a metric as positive LOC. It's easy to come up with examples where deleting unused code is actually harmful:

- Just delete all comments

- Remove platform code you are not using now, but might in the future

- Remove reference code because you are only using platform code

- Remove test code that is just not called yet, but really should be

- Remove code from a copied library that is now harder to keep current

- etc..

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#63

Post by wldcordeiro »

starmole wrote: post #62

This story is about how useless LOC is as a metric. But negative LOC alone is just as useless a metric as positive LOC. It's easy to come up with examples where deleting unused code is actually harmful: - Just delete all comments - Remove platform code you are not using now, but might in the future - Remove reference code because you are only using platform code - Remove test code that is just not called yet, but rea…

Negative LOC while retaining those things would be optimal, if you can manage to reduce the size of the overall codebase while fixing issues and/or adding features it's the best possible outcome.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#64

Post by praveenster »

I was surprised when YC asked something similar in their application:

"If you've already started working on it, how long have you been working and how many lines of code (if applicable) have you written?"

My response ... "I personally believe that using "lines of code" is a crude metric as it favors the sloppy programmer who doesn't write compact code and discourages code reuse by utilizing libraries and frameworks."

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#65

Post by sokoloff »

praveenster wrote: post #64

I was surprised when YC asked something similar in their application: "If you've already started working on it, how long have you been working and how many lines of code (if applicable) have you written?" My response ... "I personally believe that using "lines of code" is a crude metric as it favors the sloppy programmer who doesn't write compact code and discourages code reuse by utilizing libraries and frameworks."

I think you'd improve your response by answering:

1234 LOC, but I personally believe that....

IMO, the answer to a question like that begins with a number (if applicable) and contains commentary only after the number. (I agree with your commentary, just disagree with the value of not answering.)

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#66

Post by lectrick »

mgkimsal wrote: post #23
wdewind wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so literal about it. I used to get defensive about that question too, but the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making, they are asking you to start the salary negotiation so they can get a feel for what it's going to take to hire you and describe you adequately to a hiring manager. It's just an opportunity for you both to ballpark the situation and eject early if there's going to be a wide di…

No... there are recruiters who are a lot more invasive and pushy (and a couple employers I've run across). "Proof of previous income" was required at one place I applied years back, and I've heard similar stories from colleagues. No, of course, I don't bother going forward in those situations. "What are you making now?" is crass. The good recruiters I've worked with phrased it as "what are your salary expectations?"…

> recruiters

Dude, that right there is the problem. They make a commission off your starting salary, so OF COURSE their primary concern is your past and future financials.

This is why I hate recruiters.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#67

Post by egroat »

ja27 wrote: post #51

I worked somewhere where the support manager somehow managed to get approval to bill his costs against each product group based on the lines of code in their product. We spent part of a week refactoring and reformatting to cut it by 70% before we gave him our numbers.

That is genious.

Absolute genious. There are likely to be less problems on a smaller codebase and when there are its much easier to recommend a rewrite of 1k than 10k

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#68

Post by paulddraper »

mikeash wrote: post #57
wdewind wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so literal about it. I used to get defensive about that question too, but the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making, they are asking you to start the salary negotiation so they can get a feel for what it's going to take to hire you and describe you adequately to a hiring manager. It's just an opportunity for you both to ballpark the situation and eject early if there's going to be a wide di…

That sounds a lot like a friendly way of saying "you should lie." I don't really disagree, but we might as well be honest about it here.

Or give the the answer to what they want to know, not to what they asked.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#69

Post by cpitman »

voltagex_ wrote: post #56
marcosdumay wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a week long project (some supporting tool, or something similar) it's easy to write 10k lines a week. In a 6 months project, 10-100 lines are more likely, and in an "eternal" software that is already mostly written, 0 is a perfectly fine number.

I dread the day someone starts tracking LOC vs productivity in TFS. I might be switching between C#, SQL, CSS, HTML and Javascript on a busy day. A context switch == a productivity hit.

That was actually one of my favorite moments! Someone pulled up the TFS chart of lines of code added/removed per developer. First, I removed way more lines then I added. But second, the number of lines I removed was (completely accidentally) the same as the number of lines my team lead added. When he saw that, he just kind of looked over at me to make sure I wasn't following him commit by commit to rewrite his code!

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#70

Post by specialist »

wdewind wrote: post #18
mgkimsal wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The justification they told me was that they weren't going to give me a 20K raise if I wasn't making that much right now Even after 20+ years in the labor force, I've never understood that justification. "I'm a nosy bastard" at least has a ring of truth to it.

Don't be so literal about it. I used to get defensive about that question too, but the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making, they are asking you to start the salary negotiation so they can get a feel for what it's going to take to hire you and describe you adequately to a hiring manager. It's just an opportunity for you both to ballpark the situation and eject early if there's going to be a wide di…

the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making

Correct. They're just trying to figure out how little you will accept.

they are asking you to start the salary negotiation

Never be the first to give a number.

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