Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights • Hacker News Board

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#201

Post by mynameisvlad » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:34 AM UTC

makomk wrote: post #187

mynameisvlad wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Lightning connector being proprietary does suck, but it's far and away the best mobile device connector I've used. It's small, easy to connect, and disconnects fairly easily on tug. USB-C is pretty nice, but for similar feature set you have a much larger connector.

Lightning and USB-C aren't really comparable because USB-C supports USB 3.1 while Lightning is limited to USB 2 speeds for everything, including video out. Which means that Apple have to compress the video out and stick an entire ARM SoC in their very expensive AV adapter to decompress it, and this degrades the picture quality. By comparison, USB-C can carry uncompressed HD video, power, and a fast USB 3 data link at…

The latest iPad Pro IIRC has some sort of post-2 chip (I just don't remember if it's 3 or 3.1), it's just not being used yet. The connector itself has 16 total pins available, and the plug has 8. Since the Type C connector is 18 pins with 2 being orientation detection and 4 being ground, it's still possible to have the Lightning connector itself support 3.1 by actually using both sides at the same time instead of just one at a time; although those extra 2 pins would be handy.

So in terms of the connector itself, they're still pretty comparable, it's just that Apple for whatever reason didn't want to add support for it.

Edit: Cleared up some things that were actually untrue after researching it a bit more.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#202

Post by odbol » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:35 AM UTC

cubano wrote: post #164

Creating a new compatible hub now sounds like an ideal Kickstarter project, no? Also, I can't help but wonder if UL issues may have influenced the decision too...just look at the current hoverboard fire issues with cheap Chinese manufacturing and I can at least speculate that they might be.

Or just wait for Google to release Weave and Brillo. Those are both open platforms for communicating with IoT devices. Which is the exact opposite strategy as Apple's, who is SO CLOSED DOWN you actually need to buy a physical chip from Apple and incorporate it into your hardware for your hardware to be controlled by Siri.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#203

Post by jzwinck » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:37 AM UTC

gherkin0 wrote: post #161

cbsmith wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem like a fair view of the analysis. If the real value was in the hub, and these other lights were getting a free ride on it, then the opportunity would be to charge more for the hub. What is far more likely to be the case is that the support costs around problems caused by random third party components messing with the Zigbee network were exceeding the value of providing that support, particularly whe…

It's a total dick move on Philips's part to "update" incompatibility into existing products that people already own and have spend money and effort to integrate. These people bought product with the expectation of compatibility, now they're out their investment because of Philips's selfish business decision. Even they have elevated support costs, Philips's made their bed by offering compatibility in the first place f…

> It's a total dick move on Philips's part to "update" incompatibility into existing products that people already own

Last year, Shimano (the bikes-and-fishing people) released a firmware update for their electronic shifting system which prevents 2012 (10-speed) parts from working with 2014 (11-speed) gear mechanisms. Literally, if you upgraded your bike from 10 speeds to 11, it worked when the hardware was released, but not after you installed the (irreversible) firmware update. This is with everything coming from a single brand!

You can read a little about that here: http://fitwerx.com/converting-shimano-ultegra-6770-di2-to-11...

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#204

Post by odbol » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:39 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #96

wlesieutre wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't describe 3rd parties as "ripping off the design and protocol" when bulb hub communication is done using the ZigBee Light Link protocol. Philips didn't develop that. Standard here: http://www.zigbee.org/?wpdmdl=2132 [pdf warning] And no, lights from other manufacturers (I have several from GE) no longer work via the Hue app or any of the 3rd party alternatives. I made the mistake of accepting Hue's "update…

> This is like Apple saying "Laptops from other brands are no longer supported on Airport wireless networks so that we can ensure devices are fully compatible." Didn't Apple do that with Bluetooth once? I recall reading that at least one iteration of iPhones could not send files via Bluetooth to non-Apple devices.

iPhones can't even send files to other iPhones or Mac or anything over Bluetooth. In fact iPhone doesn't even HAVE files.

It's 2015 and still the only way to share files from your iPhone is to plug it in.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#205

Post by odbol » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:42 AM UTC

rosser wrote: post #46

xutopia wrote: post #2

So what would you recommend we use instead?

I recently bought a pile of these: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-most-affordable-w... They're much less expensive than Hue, support IFTTT integration, and seem to be much more open in spirit than Philips' offering.

It seems a little disingenuous to recommend a product that hasn't even shipped yet. You have no idea if they work, or if they'll even be built.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#206

Post by odbol » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:46 AM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #166

gregmac wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood the desire to control lights without using a wall switch. I say this having had X10 and later Insteon installations in 3 different houses over the past 10 years. Even today, I have the ability to control nearly all the lights on the main floor of my house with an app on my phone. I actually use this feature maybe once or twice a year, being generous. Even if my phone is on me and already unlocked (…

It's not so much a desire as a work-around for the fact that smart bulbs need a trickle of power 24-7 so they can respond to external messages from timers/sensors/etc. The wall switch has to stay on, so you need to kludge up some other way to control it. These kludges are slowly getting better: maybe you can get a menu bar app so you can control your lights from the computer, maybe your phone/tablet light app can sti…

Tappur does exactly that: http://tappur.co

It's a widget in your notifications bar and your lock screen with buttons for remote control. Also has a smartwatch app. I use it all the time and it's so much faster than the official Hue app.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#207

Post by rhizome » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:50 AM UTC

jpatokal wrote: post #174

gherkin0 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a total dick move on Philips's part to "update" incompatibility into existing products that people already own and have spend money and effort to integrate. These people bought product with the expectation of compatibility, now they're out their investment because of Philips's selfish business decision. Even they have elevated support costs, Philips's made their bed by offering compatibility in the first place f…

I'm sure page 67 of the Philips Hue T&C states in 3-point font that Philips Hue is only compatible with itself and they reserve the right to pull the plug on third-party product compatibility at any time.

On the face of it, why do they do more than that? Just use the warranty to recommend certain bulbs and let the hobbyists run riot knowing the company doesn't back them up for this stuff. But at least it still can work.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#208

Post by aktive0 » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:54 AM UTC

on_and_off wrote: post #158

xutopia wrote: post #2

So what would you recommend we use instead?

I can only recommend you not to buy LIFX bulbs. I have one and it has been widely unreliable from day one. It does not default to on when you use the light switch, so you always have to use the app to interact with it. Half the time, the app fails to detect it. The rest of the time, it can take random amounts of time for it to respond. It also likes to randomly light up red in the middle of the night or to flicker ve…

I have LIFX bulbs and do not experience this issue at all. In fact, if I've turned the bulb off via software, I can flick the physical switch off, then on and the bulb comes on. Their app is amazing and they are constantly adding new features and have a great api to boot.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#209

Post by coldtea » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 1:57 AM UTC

mdip wrote: post #35

I'll never understand why companies make such customer hostile decisions. I can't see any upside to this and I can't imagine what the discussion looked like when implementing this decision. My (admittedly cynical) guess is that it was one part "We're fielding a lot of support questions on products that aren't ours and our malfunctioning" and two parts "Our customers will be more motivated to buy Philips Hue products…

>I'll never understand why companies make such customer hostile decisions. I can't see any upside to this and I can't imagine what the discussion looked like when implementing this decision.

Can't see any upside? How about more control and money for Philips, and few people would even care?

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#210

Post by egypturnash » Tue, Dec 15, 2015, 2:00 AM UTC

odbol wrote: post #206

egypturnash wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so much a desire as a work-around for the fact that smart bulbs need a trickle of power 24-7 so they can respond to external messages from timers/sensors/etc. The wall switch has to stay on, so you need to kludge up some other way to control it. These kludges are slowly getting better: maybe you can get a menu bar app so you can control your lights from the computer, maybe your phone/tablet light app can sti…

Tappur does exactly that: http://tappur.co It's a widget in your notifications bar and your lock screen with buttons for remote control. Also has a smartwatch app. I use it all the time and it's so much faster than the official Hue app.

I use the LIFX bulbs myself (such better greens and blues!); their iOS app has a notification widget. And a watch UI as well.

And I wrote a little app that lives in my Mac's menu bar and lets me pick from the scenes I set up in the official app, too, someday I should actually package it up properly. (https://github.com/egypturnash/weatherlight)