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Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

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Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#41

Post by chkuendig »

wvenable wrote: post #27
gregmac wrote: post #22

This is the Philips controller software (app) that is refusing to talk to or control 3rd party light bulbs. I don't really see this as being a problem. It's not the nicest thing, perhaps, but neither is 3rd party companies building bulbs (presumably by ripping off the design and protocol of Philip's bulbs), and then relying on Philips to build the software so they can actually be used. In other words, Philips is refu…

The slippery slope of "intellectual property" is so steep that even building interface-compatible products is now considered ripping something off. We've come a long way from the age of IBM compatibles and the PC revolution.

On the other hand you could argue that while the pc revolution fueled on DOS licensing and IBM compatible BIOS was a a massive leap for the economy overall, it wasnt the best move for IBM in either the short nor the long term. Now they do the no-scales business of services and consulting...

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#42

Post by roymurdock »

fixermark wrote: post #26
roymurdock wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Official Reason: "The lamp that cannot be added may be a lamp from another brand. Philips does not test and cannot guarantee the behavior of all bulbs from other brands connected to the Philips Hue system. To guarantee the quality of consumer experience only Philips Hue and Friends of Hue lamps can be added using the the Philips Hue [Hub]." [1] Real Reason: We invested money into our hub and building out our partners…

Do you have evidence of the "Real Reason" scenario as opposed to the Occam's Razor scenario that (a) Philips really can't guarantee the protocol works with any lights they don't explicitly test against and (b) the reason some manufacturers can slide in at a fraction of the price is that they're cutting necessary corners in either hardware or protocol compliance? ;)

I think most users would see open connectivity protocols as a feature, and being unable to connect whatever lighting fixture they wanted to the Hue hub as a deterioration of their "consumer experience".

Connect some dodgy 3rd party lamp that is non-compliant, or worse, infects your system w/ malware and breaks your products? That's a bad consumer experience you've brought upon yourself, knowing full-well the risks. If anything, it'll make you an ever more loyal Philips Hue customer once you shell out another $200 for another starter pack and never touch the untested 3rd party stuff again.

I'd be very surprised if this was anything other than the classic case of - build a very nice garden, then wall it off, or else go broke.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#43

Post by someotheracct7 »

This is odd, but not catastrophic. If I understand right, Zigbee is open, so what's to stop the bulbs working with a third-party controller hub? Say, a Raspberry Pi with a Zigbee interface?

Wonder if this is still relevant? http://www.everyhue.com/vanilla/discussion/141/getting-hue-t...

That thread suggests it's possible to have Hue bulbs join third-party ZigBee networks.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#44

Post by jhall1468 »

bitwize wrote: post #28
jcromartie wrote: post #20

Are there grounds for a lawsuit when a manufacturer pushes out an update to a product that intentionally degrades its feature set like this? This is no longer the same product that these users bought, it's effectively damaged by the update.

No, technically the third-party manufacturers were in violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, a federal offense with penalties up to five years in prison. From Philips' perspective, refusing to cooperate with those criminally infringing their IP is a feature, not a bug.

I call BS. This is using the Zigbee standard which Phillips doesn't own. They added a proprietary layer after the fact, which blocked non-Phillips products.

Unless you care to share evidence of a DMCA violation, this sounds like you are just making this up as you go.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#45

Post by scrollaway »

josho wrote: post #33
orionblastar wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DRM is defective by design. I first saw the Hue lightbulbs on SyFy with the 12 Monkeys show. It syncs up lighting to your show. I knew I didn't need that and it would be trouble later on. Now I know the devices lock out third party bulbs.

Let's start redefining DRM as what it truly is: Digital *Restrictions* Management

Defective Restrictions Module ;)

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#46

Post by rosser »

xutopia wrote: post #2

So what would you recommend we use instead?

I recently bought a pile of these:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-most-affordable-w...

They're much less expensive than Hue, support IFTTT integration, and seem to be much more open in spirit than Philips' offering.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#47

Post by rlpb »

xutopia wrote: post #2

So what would you recommend we use instead?

I've been looking into this but haven't committed to buying anything yet.

Insteon doesn't seem well enough documented for third party controller implementations to me, although there are third party controllers available.

Z-Wave (distinctively different from Zigbee) are the main contender for me right now. They seem to have the most interoperability but it is still a closed protocol in that documentation isn't freely available. But access higher up in the stack does seem easier. It looks like I'll be able to act as a controller, rather than being forced to talk to one.

I like Insteon's dual signaling and bridging capability (between radio and signaling through the mains) but it has very limited security and it looks tricky for me to put a controller together myself (which as a developer is my test for openness).

X10 (supported by Insteon devices) has no security and is quite limited, so I don't want to invest in that now.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#48

Post by gregmac »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #12
xutopia wrote: post #2

So what would you recommend we use instead?

I would strongly recommend that any home automation device you buy has a direct method that it can be interfaced with and programmed in a local way. If a device is only programmable by a web API, rule it out. You may also wish to consider looking for devices which are based on a switch, rather than a bulb. Controllable bulbs do not play nice with the state of physical light switches, and in the case of multi-bulb fix…

I never understood the desire to control lights without using a wall switch. I say this having had X10 and later Insteon installations in 3 different houses over the past 10 years.

Even today, I have the ability to control nearly all the lights on the main floor of my house with an app on my phone. I actually use this feature maybe once or twice a year, being generous. Even if my phone is on me and already unlocked (due to being in my house), I have to pull it out, swipe the screen, launch an app, wait for it to load, then find the lights I want and click to turn on. Or I can press the switch on the wall next to me.

Or, even better, a timer/motion sensor has already turned on the light for me and I don't even have to think about it. This is what real home automation is all about.

Re: Philips Hue blocks 3rd party lights

#49

Post by wlesieutre »

gregmac wrote: post #22

This is the Philips controller software (app) that is refusing to talk to or control 3rd party light bulbs. I don't really see this as being a problem. It's not the nicest thing, perhaps, but neither is 3rd party companies building bulbs (presumably by ripping off the design and protocol of Philip's bulbs), and then relying on Philips to build the software so they can actually be used. In other words, Philips is refu…

I wouldn't describe 3rd parties as "ripping off the design and protocol" when bulb hub communication is done using the ZigBee Light Link protocol. Philips didn't develop that.

Standard here: http://www.zigbee.org/?wpdmdl=2132 [pdf warning]

And no, lights from other manufacturers (I have several from GE) no longer work via the Hue app or any of the 3rd party alternatives. I made the mistake of accepting Hue's "update your bridge" prompt already, not realizing it would break them. Until I saw this headline I assumed it was a matter of unpair/repair to get the working again, but it looks like no luck. They're no longer in my list of paired bulbs, and (I'll try when I get home) it doesn't sound like they can be paired anymore.

For an example of the now-useless bulbs I have: http://www.homedepot.com/p/GE-Link-60W-Equivalent-Soft-White...

GE isn't even selling these saying "get our cheaper bulbs and use them with Hue," they're marketed as being compatible with the Wink hub. But since it all works over the same open standard, you can use them on whichever base you like.

This is like Apple saying "Laptops from other brands are no longer supported on Airport wireless networks so that we can ensure devices are fully compatible." It's a huge dick move on Philips's part.

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