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How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

nytimes.com

11–20 of 69 posts

Re: How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

#13

Is the end to double taxation for the corporate tax only? Human Americans are also double-taxed on income earned abroad.

Only if the math doesn't work out right (same for corporates also). There is a lot of ambiguity though...

Re: How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

#14

> Congressional leaders agree that passing legislation according to [the Schumer-Portman] framework would stop inversions Until another country offers an even better tax deal to attract multi-national corporations.

That's not how things actually work. If it was, every nation but one would lose all of their corporations to that one country with the lowest rate. The decline in the benefit of a lower corporate tax rate accelerates as you go lower. For example, going from 35% to 25% might reduce your corporate inversions by 75%. Going from 35% to 10% might reduce your inversions by 85%. The challenge is to find the level where you…

I agree with you in general but there is another thing you're missing: the double taxation discourages investing in new businesses in the United States.

If a VC is looking at two very similar businesses selling internationally, with one seated in the US where their profits will be doubly taxed, and the other running in a different country where profits are not subject to this, then ceteris paribus, they should expect investment in the non-US company to be more profitable.

Re: How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

#16

Is the end to double taxation for the corporate tax only? Human Americans are also double-taxed on income earned abroad.

Only if the math doesn't work out right (same for corporates also). There is a lot of ambiguity though...

Everything over the deduction (currently just shy of $100k) is taxed, minus a further deduction for tax paid to a foreign government on the earnings. Basically, you will pay the higher of US tax or local tax, on earnings over $100k. And you're right, most people don't pay.

Really the bigger pain in the ass is that you even have to file. I've filed tax returns to the IRS for the last 10 years despite not paying a cent of tax to the US during that time, since my local tax is higher anyway. It's ridiculous. And come to think of it, even if they did end the double taxation, it's likely they'd keep making us file, the assholes, considering they also recently began to require that we make a yearly report to FinCEN in addition to the IRS.

Re: How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

#17
post #9

> Congressional leaders agree that passing legislation according to [the Schumer-Portman] framework would stop inversions Until another country offers an even better tax deal to attract multi-national corporations.

Correct. That's why 0% is preferable to 8%, and Schumer-Portman should be thought of as a medium term stop-gap measure. 0% is the only stable rate. Eventually that will happen, but for the time being 8% will work as other revenue adjustments are made.

0% is only the stable rate in theory (and only if you ignore every other business consideration in the theory). It will never work like that in reality, where countries often have dramatic benefits to offer that compensate for paying more than 0%.

All nations would have to go to zero in the category of what other benefits they have to offer (their sum value proposition outside of their tax rate). That's not going to happen. Those benefits add up to being worth a certain amount of tax depending on the nation and the corporation's specific context. If this wasn't true, every relevant corporation would have flooded out of the US (or Germany) long ago, seeking much lower rates.

Re: How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

#18
I am trying to think of companies that should rightfully repatriate cash back to the states, and companies that should not.

Why is it that it is repulsive that Google or Apple chooses to keep their cash overseas, whereas it is fine for Budweiser to do so (ignoring magnitudes for a second)? Because AB Inbev is Belgian? This is a difficult example for me to think of, because the US is one of the interesting countries where the largest companies here (or globally) are almost always American too.

But let's imagine for a moment that there is a company called Apple Inc that only does business in the US and nowhere else, and there is an unrelated company in France called Pomme SA, and another unrelated company called Apfel AG in Germany that happen to sell identical iPads and iPhones. Do they have a duty to transfer cash to each other and their jurisdictions? What if the CEOs of these companies travelled and met each other and went, "oh! we did not know it but we sell the same thing, let's share resources in some way", which country has a right to collect tax on the revenue of the new global organization?

The real debate is really about fairness in transfer pricing (which is difficult if not utterly boring, because typically transfer pricing are for services that are not fungible or even exchangeable in arms length markets, and so the debate within tax jurisdictions are over the nitty-gritty "economics" of the transaction in addition to consideration of foreign tax obligations yadda yadda yadda yawn), and this tax evasion through scary financial structuring like "inversion" is a really catchy thing to publicly excoriate, but it's probably not the right concern. So this is kind of a stretched example.

The point I am getting at is that many American companies aren't 100% American, and it doesn't seem like there is a good reason for insist that all foreign earned cash (from Apfel and Pomme) to be brought back to the US. I do not agree that a company like (say) Royal Dutch Shell, being one of the largest oil companies here, should repatriate cash into the US, and unanimously most of us don't think so, so this is not really the problem we should be getting angry about.

Re: How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

#19
post #6

Such a pile of crap, by Icahn, of course. Corporations do not exist in a vacuum of social irresponsibility and their first duty is certainly not to their shareholders but to the people they employ and to the societies they thrive on.

No, actually what you're saying is a pile of crap. The only irresponsible ones in this situation are the members of Congress. The United States is not immune to economic forces, yet for years despite all the evidence to the contrary they've been in utter denial about this. All they have to do is pass a simple bill to make the US tax code work the same way as it does in every other god damn country in the world, then…

> No, actually what you're saying is a pile of crap.

In Germany, our constitution says in §14.2: "Eigentum verpflichtet. Sein Gebrauch soll zugleich dem Wohle der Allgemeinheit dienen.", translated roughly to "Ownership creates duties. Its use shall be for common welfare."

For me, looks like the failure is in the US constitution which does not focus on the common good.

Re: How to Stop Turning U.S. Corporations into Tax Exiles

#20
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. That's why 0% is preferable to 8%, and Schumer-Portman should be thought of as a medium term stop-gap measure. 0% is the only stable rate. Eventually that will happen, but for the time being 8% will work as other revenue adjustments are made.

0% is only the stable rate in theory (and only if you ignore every other business consideration in the theory). It will never work like that in reality, where countries often have dramatic benefits to offer that compensate for paying more than 0%. All nations would have to go to zero in the category of what other benefits they have to offer (their sum value proposition outside of their tax rate). That's not going to…

I agree to an extent, but nations are also competing on all of these other factors that make them more attractive places to do business. Some costly health care surcharge in France could be reduced as easily as the foreign profit taxation in the US.

Also, it only takes one Ireland to drive the entire world toward 0%.

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