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Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

positech.co.uk

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Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#91
post #69

I think there would be a better case for regulating in game purchases. Some kind of limit, or a at least a warning at the beginning so people know what they are in for. "This game contains purchasable items. You may spend more than 10 000 dollars in this game." Marketing on the other hand is a different story. We cant really ban that.

And why not?

There are cases over the world where advertising was banned with success.

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/5338

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1125...

This is just the first step.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#92

Hmm this is a tough one. Firstly I should make it clear that my wife works in the games industry. She works on PC, Console and Mobile titles. She has mentioned several times how there is a lot of pressure put on developers and publishers to "catch the whales". They employ psychologists and gambling specialists to make games, mostly mobile but it is also creeping into PC and Console, super addictive. Personally I am o…

I think you've defined the problem better than the original post: what to do about whales? Most people would guess that these are people with psychological problems who need help. But do we know that? Maybe they're billionaires and they're okay with it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to work for anyone who is targeting whales, though.

Classify micro-purchase games as gambling.

The whales aren't much different from the gambling addicts who are drawn in by the blinking lights, noise, and adrenaline shots from winning at chance.

The only difference with these Skinner-box games is that people are conditioned to repeatedly put money into a machine that isn't giving any monetary payout.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#93
He brings up a bunch of things, only one of which applies to Star Citizen: the "addictive" element of collecting things. Star Citizen is a game with genuinely exciting concepts and visuals exhibited in their marketing. The "addictive" thing that appears to have driven part of their $100M fundraise is prepurchasing cool-looking spaceships.

But how would you regulate that? And what would be the impact on Lego kits, Star Wars action figures, Beanie Babies, coins, stamps, and other real-world collectibles? They have the same issues with OCD. Wouldn't it be arbitrary to limit it to software?

If found it interesting that the author left the most potentially regulatable thing about Star Citizen untouched: consumer protections for crowdfunding investments.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#94
OP is rolling two separate claims into one.

The first claim is that there is a problem.

Yes, I agree. There is.

The second claim is that the solution is prohibition.

The results of applying that solution to alcohol addiction and then drug addiction were... 'more harmful than beneficial' is much too mild a way to put it. 'Society-wrecking catastrophe' would be more accurate. Given those precedents, any argument that another round of prohibition is the right answer here requires far more justification than OP gives.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#95
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a massive difference between fraud (promising impossible returns or cures) and advertising. Game makers aim to addict you, but they don't lie and they do give you exactly what they say they will.

What part of making a fraudulent Facebook account and friending users to get their information isn't fraud?

Yeah, this seemed like a clear line if ever one was needed. My company builds F2P games that are ad supported, but my god that is some disgusting crap right there.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#96
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in your opinion there's nothing a gaming or marketing company can do that's legal now, but really shouldn't be? I'm also not buying that it's a slippery slope and banning, say, cross compiling profiles on customers from different, unrelated platforms would "take down the entirety of marketing and advertising as an industry". In capitalism, companies will do everything within the legal framework to make more money.…

Take a look at someone who spent $30k on ships in Star Citizen. http://www.pcgamer.com/meet-a-fan-who-has-spent-30000-on-sta... He seems like a reasonable person to me. He's not in financial ruin. He doesn't seem to regret his purchase. He's just putting money into his hobby, the same way a different 40 year old would buy an "unproductive" boat or an "unproductive" Rolex.

I think both the original article's and your points are valid. Especially when you start to see games/virtual items as a "thing" (which probably started with UO/WoW) as opposed to a "fake thing". That said, as a thought experiment, I disagree with the fact that government and regulation have no place in the way a society consumes things like this.

If you accept that our knowledge of psychology, biochemistry, and neuroscience are improving and likely to continue doing so, and that calibrated external actions are capable of influencing our behavior, and that progress in the former begets progress in the latter, then either:

a) We will reach a point where we will stop making progress in those fields

b) We overturn the majority of our current social psychology knowledge and realize that yes, people actually do have absolute free will

c) We will develop techniques so sophisticated and reliable to influence behavior that it becomes unreasonable to expect an average person to resist them

As I (and the original article seems to) see it, the current free-for-all that is "freemium"/casual gaming basically targets all of capitalism's motivation and resources on arriving at (c) as quickly as possible. And... we're getting pretty damn good at it.

PS: Positech Games makes great stuff, btw! GSB had several free expansions just because Cliff Harris is cool [he == Positech]. He absolutely could have charged for the content if he'd felt like milking more money out of his users.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#97
post #42
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't play games, but my roommate does for several hours every day. I asked him about it and he said he loves being immersed in it, and finds it much more engaging than other forms of entertainment, such as watching a movie. I wouldn't call him "addicted" though. We hang out all the time, and I never see the sort of desperation that the author describes. ... Are there specific genre's of games that have the sorts o…

>Are there specific genre's of games that have the sorts of traps the author describes? Free-to-play games are the obvious example. MMORPGs are another, though I would say they are somewhat less sinister as — while they use many psychological tricks to keep players coming back — they are at the core generally an attempt to produce an interesting or enjoyable game world, which is generally not the primary goal in F2P…

As a former MtG player, I remember the gambler's high I'd get opening every booster pack. But while my cards are sitting in a dusty box somewhere, it sounds like there's a lot of recirculation that happens within the Valve community.

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people have better impulse control than others; it's not the state's job to regulate the impulses of their populaces, or regulate systems that know how to manipulate them. Out of genuine curiosity, do you feel the same about state intervention in other situations, away from gaming, that involve a more knowledgeable or deliberate party taking advantage of a less knowledgeable or deliberate one? For example, what…

Is it OK for bars or clubs to offer a happy hour early in the evening to get patrons going, then turn up the heat and make it hard to find water so those patrons keep ordering more drinks and getting more and more drunk throughout the evening? You honestly believe we need a law against this? God forbid a restaurant owner offer any promotion whatsoever.

(Note that I am not the person you replied to.)

I do honestly feel that there should be a law against that in the society which I live in, since I find such actions taken by the restaurant owner to be manipulative and purposefully deceptive (excuse me for not coming up with better terms, I am not a native English speaker), knowing that many people -- not all of them, but many -- thus end up drinking far more than they would personally intend to.

I see no reason to promote such dishonesty, deception and misleading actions towards customers within a society, especially when the vulnerable ones are not vulnerable to it by choice, but by nature. It's the exact same thing which goes on with say gambling addicts or alcoholics. And no, I am not arguing for giving up the notion of personal responsibility, but I am arguing that these actions exploit vulnerabilities in people, which I see as no different from a ethical point of view than say committing a fraud against someone you know who has a psychological or neurological condition making them vulnerable for excess goodwill (or, someone suffering from e.g. dementia).

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#99
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no fan of these games, but is it fundamentally different from, say, Harley-Davidson?

Yes. When HD advertises to you, you buy a bike and you're done. And you have an actual, existent bike. And you could sell it later should you feel like you made a mistake. With whales, they spend and spend and spend - way more than a Harley costs them. And what do they end up with? Sweet FA.

Does that mean the fundamental problem is the inability to resell in-game purchases?

Re: Hi, I’m from the games industry. Governments, please stop us

#100

> "We need to reign this stuff in. Its not just psychological warfare, but warfare where you, the customer, are woefully outgunned, and losing. Some people are losing catastrophically." I strongly disagree with this statement. I am very aware of the psychology behind marketing and advertising, and anyone with half an interest in it has probably read Vance Packard's The Hidden Persuaders , which was released, oh, 58 y…

Why the death of advertising could be a bad thing? Its usefulness is way overrated when it comes to the common good.
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