Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace • Hacker News Board

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#11

Post by coldtea » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

Create wrote: post #9

dang wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I know about Wolfram's asides, tics, and shoehorning, as does everyone who reads a thing he wrote. But the Wolfram Derangement Syndrome it provokes in internet forum threads isn't interesting either. It's a mirror image of the thing it is annoyed by. We're not going to ban what Wolfram writes because (a) he's a good writer, (b) however one evaluates him, Mathematica is significant, and (c) his best pieces—which…

Mathematica is significant Mathematica is a proprietary software influenced by the earlier computer algebra systems Macsyma (of which Wolfram was a user) and Schoonschip (whose code Wolfram studied). Maxima is a computer algebra system based on a 1982 version of Macsyma. It is written in Common Lisp and runs on all POSIX platforms such as OS X, Unix, BSD, and Linux as well as under Microsoft Windows and Android. It i…

>Mathematica is a proprietary software

Nothing wrong with that.

>influenced by the earlier computer algebra systems Macsyma (of which Wolfram was a user) and Schoonschip (whose code Wolfram studied).

Not much wrong with that either.

Even if it was just a clone of those systems when it came out, being the successful clone is enough to make it have merit.

But of course since then it's 1000 times the code size of the initial systems, and 100 times the capabilities.

>It would be the same to defend William Henry "Bill" Gates III, by stating that MS-DOS is significant, while MS-DOS was a renamed form of 86-DOS

Again, MS-DOS is significant. Whether it was innovative (it wasn't) is another thing, but it sure has been historically significant.

Sorry, but it's not always the first product that comes out that defines an era and a market. And copying happens all the time too, and can even evolve into something that the original never was.

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#12

Post by joeyrideout » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 7:32 PM UTC

I absolutely love the parallels between this story of Ada and Babbage and modern startup dynamics.

Early on, "Babbage was slightly distracted in 1824 by the prospect of joining a life insurance startup". Later, Ada "proposed to take on the role of CEO, with Babbage becoming CTO", where the CTO in this case had a personality that "pushed others away" and the CEO was a "Steve-Jobs-like figure who would lead the vision of the Analytical Engine".

My favourite excerpt from this piece, though, hits home for us programmers who prefer to automate annoying tasks. I found it hilarious, and will probably use this quote in my next commit message: Babbage is said to have exclaimed, “I wish to God these tables had been made by steam!”—and began his lifelong effort to mechanize the production of tables.

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#13

Post by ericjang » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 7:39 PM UTC

I thought this was a wonderfully written account of Ada and Babbage's role in modern computing. It was delightful to see how someone from Victorian society would express the frustration of debugging:

I am in much dismay at having got into so amazing a quagmire & botheration with these Numbers, that I cannot possibly get the thing done today. …. I am now going out on horseback. Tant mieux

Stephen Wolfram does add a few self-congratulatory remarks, but by and large it didn't really bother me for this article. Perhaps this is all part of some grand scheme to inflate his own work, but I learned a lot of history reading the article that I might not otherwise have by researching it myself. I think this piece was well-written enough to be taken at face value.

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#14

Post by breatheoften » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #3

j2kun wrote: post #2

I like history and particularly the history of computing, but given how little respect Wolfram had with regards to the history of mathematical ideas that preceded his own work (and then claiming credit for those ideas), how can I trust any historical analysis he authors?

Every Wolframy thread turns into the same discussion about Wolfram himself. Let's not let that happen here. Idiosyncrancies aside, he obviously has the background to understand this material. The main obstacle is putting in the time to understand it, which he did. The article is replete with historical information, he explains why he concludes what he does, and the result is an order of magnitude more substantive (an…

I found the historical storytelling to be the most fascinating part of the article as well -- however I think the article does also lend potentially interesting fodder for discussion of wolfram himself.

One can clearly see why wolfram would be interested in the ideas of Lovelace and Babbage -- but I wonder what kind of introspection he experiences as he reflects on his perception of their Victorian personalities. People who talk explicitly about nobility and "bequeathing" ideas to future generations, while also being actual visionaries as regarded by these future generations. There's Babbage who believes himself to be under appreciated by his contemporaries -- a character flaw which frequently causes him to fail to act in ways which would've been more effective at recruiting support from others and might've resulted in a deeper execution of his vision. And Lovelace who seems very able to see herself as an abstract object of public perception, due to the controversy and celebrity of her father -- and who devotes herself completely to authoring a version of her story that is unassailable by controversy -- an actor who explicitly asks that her contributions be portrayed only for the merit of the advancements they contain -- and no more.

One wonders which personality wolfram self identifies with more ...

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#15

Post by Create » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #11

Create wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mathematica is significant Mathematica is a proprietary software influenced by the earlier computer algebra systems Macsyma (of which Wolfram was a user) and Schoonschip (whose code Wolfram studied). Maxima is a computer algebra system based on a 1982 version of Macsyma. It is written in Common Lisp and runs on all POSIX platforms such as OS X, Unix, BSD, and Linux as well as under Microsoft Windows and Android. It i…

> Mathematica is a proprietary software Nothing wrong with that. > influenced by the earlier computer algebra systems Macsyma (of which Wolfram was a user) and Schoonschip (whose code Wolfram studied). Not much wrong with that either. Even if it was just a clone of those systems when it came out, being the successful clone is enough to make it have merit. But of course since then it's 1000 times the code size of the…

The issue is misattributions and misappropriations. And those should be (and are) wrong, esp. in science.

Taking the spirit of the times, ie. migrating software from minis to micros/pc^1-s in both cases and expropriating and monopolizing is not about simply copying, nor evolution in the best sense.

^1 https://xkcd.com/386/

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#16

Post by JorgeGT » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 9:37 PM UTC

But back in 1826 Babbage had invented something he called Mechanical Notation—that was intended to provide a symbolic representation for the operation of machinery. [...] Undoubtedly people didn’t understand it.

So, Babbage invented VHDL?

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#17

Post by Chris2048 » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 9:51 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #11

Create wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mathematica is significant Mathematica is a proprietary software influenced by the earlier computer algebra systems Macsyma (of which Wolfram was a user) and Schoonschip (whose code Wolfram studied). Maxima is a computer algebra system based on a 1982 version of Macsyma. It is written in Common Lisp and runs on all POSIX platforms such as OS X, Unix, BSD, and Linux as well as under Microsoft Windows and Android. It i…

> Mathematica is a proprietary software Nothing wrong with that. > influenced by the earlier computer algebra systems Macsyma (of which Wolfram was a user) and Schoonschip (whose code Wolfram studied). Not much wrong with that either. Even if it was just a clone of those systems when it came out, being the successful clone is enough to make it have merit. But of course since then it's 1000 times the code size of the…

It may be that if the clone didn't exist, the attention might have instead fallen upon it's predecessors, with the benefit of them being non-propriety. Being a successful clone does not imply merit, in fact "forks" can do damage...

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#18

Post by JorgeGT » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 10:14 PM UTC

tudorw wrote: post #7

Is it okay to mention https://ideas.lego.com/projects/102740 ?

Oh, I was expecting a full LEGO Technic replica of the Engine :(

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#19

Post by SixSigma » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 10:14 PM UTC

p4wnc6 wrote: post #4

dang wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every Wolframy thread turns into the same discussion about Wolfram himself. Let's not let that happen here. Idiosyncrancies aside, he obviously has the background to understand this material. The main obstacle is putting in the time to understand it, which he did. The article is replete with historical information, he explains why he concludes what he does, and the result is an order of magnitude more substantive (an…

I disagree strongly with this. Wolfram himself litters the entire essay with asides in which he compares and contrasts his own place within science history with both Babbage and Lovelace. If Wolfram wanted to write a neutral historical account, he could have, but instead he opened the door for the continued derision of NKS-style pomposity by specifically tailoring this historical account as if it too must serve to un…

Wolfram and Babbage are so wonderfully alike, and Wolfram doesn't even see it in his own pomposity (or maybe he does and the joke's on us).

Exclaiming "that's the school I went to" added nothing to the story, like so many other asides.

Re: Untangling the Tale of Ada Lovelace

#20

Post by unlimitedbacon » Sat, Dec 12, 2015, 10:32 PM UTC

There is an excellent webcomic called The Thrilling Adventures of Lovelace and Babbage, that describes what would have happened if they had successfully completed the Analytical Engine and gone on to fight crime. http://sydneypadua.com/2dgoggles/

More impressive than the comic itself is the amount of research put into it and the footnotes that go along with it. The author often takes inspiration directly from primary sources. For instance, a whole series on Babbage's strange hatred of street musicians.