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After Capitalism?

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11–20 of 88 posts

Re: After Capitalism?

#11
post #5

I tried, honestly I tried. I tried to read it. I wanted to see the arguments because this is an area of interest to me. But I can't write a tl;dr - it would not sink in my brain. Part overview of the area, part, something else, I really have no idea what the author was trying to say Please enlighten me

This. I mean, > Several crashes later, the gloom has returned, and the signs of autumn are once again most recognizable in the pronouncements of free-market capitalism’s erstwhile boosters. I tried to read this sentence 3 times now, and I still do not know what it means. The same holds for entire paragraphs. IMO the author needs a healthy dose of http://web.princeton.edu/sites/opplab/papers/opp%20consequen...

I believe we only need to go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_Law_of_Headline...

Re: After Capitalism?

#12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is a lot of incoherent rambling indeed. My interpretation: Capitalism is on its last legs, but the "new left" has no idea what will be next, other than there will be robots, there is basic income and it's better than what we have now, just because.

He is strongly critiquing the notion that "there will be robots, there is basic income and it's better than what we have now, just because." He labels this notion "Accelerationism", and then the final section tears it apart (even the section discussing it is constantly pointing out its flaws). To wit, the closing paragraph: "Though the times are bad, the accelerationists presume that the state of the left will get be…

>But politics can’t get done by machines.

Can't it?

Democracy is simply voting, which can easily be handled by machines.

Re: After Capitalism?

#13
post #7

Such drivel. There is no "after capitalism," unless the concept of economics disappears completely. Capitalism is simply the codification of a monetary transaction to which both parties agree. As long as there is supply and demand (finite resources) there is capitalism. We have democratic socialism to make capitalism less brutal (read: less efficient but more humanizing) but demand is too fickle for most economies to…

There is "after capitalism": it's after our current flavour of capitalism.

Re: After Capitalism?

#14
A point made by Engels in Origins of the Family, Private Property and the State is that over the past 10000 years, the economic system has been completely upended several times.

10000 years ago hunter gatherers lived in primitive communism. Then slave empires arose in the fertile crescent. After Rome was sacked, decentralized feudalism became dominant. We still see its vestiges, England and Japan are ruled by royals, officially. Capitalism began taking hold only a few hundred years ago. It may be permanent in our lifetime, but it will surely be replaced in time. I doubt production will be for the purpose of enriching heirs 10000 years from now, or even 1000 years from now (perhaps even sooner).

Marx said capitalism will run its course, until its doing more harm than good. Then it will be replaced by a different system of production.

Re: After Capitalism?

#15

I tried, honestly I tried. I tried to read it. I wanted to see the arguments because this is an area of interest to me. But I can't write a tl;dr - it would not sink in my brain. Part overview of the area, part, something else, I really have no idea what the author was trying to say Please enlighten me

TL;DR: The article is lamenting the inability of the modern, technocratic left to offer compelling paths forward out of the current economic stagnation.

* The editors point to previous boom/bust cycles, and the tendency of strong workers movements & chains of strikes/riots/unions to emerge during the bust periods and demand an economic shift towards greater workers rights / less control by capitalists.

* They then point out that no such strong workers movement is emerging in this bust cycle.

* They claim that this is because there is a strong line of "accelerationist" thinking among the modern left (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism). TL;DR on accelerationism: most of HN's libertarian leftism -- embrace automation, adopt basic income, make everyone their own producer (3D printing, off-the-grid electricity, etc.).

* The article claims that this movement will not succeed without significant political change alongside its technological advances, and that no such political effort is currently happening, as far as the editors can tell. "The potential alone for this sort of mass liberation isn’t a guarantee that it will ever take place"

Re: After Capitalism?

#16
post #7

Such drivel. There is no "after capitalism," unless the concept of economics disappears completely. Capitalism is simply the codification of a monetary transaction to which both parties agree. As long as there is supply and demand (finite resources) there is capitalism. We have democratic socialism to make capitalism less brutal (read: less efficient but more humanizing) but demand is too fickle for most economies to…

What we have is welfare states, not democratic socialism.

Re: After Capitalism?

#17
post #5

I tried, honestly I tried. I tried to read it. I wanted to see the arguments because this is an area of interest to me. But I can't write a tl;dr - it would not sink in my brain. Part overview of the area, part, something else, I really have no idea what the author was trying to say Please enlighten me

This. I mean, > Several crashes later, the gloom has returned, and the signs of autumn are once again most recognizable in the pronouncements of free-market capitalism’s erstwhile boosters. I tried to read this sentence 3 times now, and I still do not know what it means. The same holds for entire paragraphs. IMO the author needs a healthy dose of http://web.princeton.edu/sites/opplab/papers/opp%20consequen...

> > Several crashes later, the gloom has returned, and the signs of autumn are once again most recognizable in the pronouncements of free-market capitalism’s erstwhile boosters.

> I tried to read this sentence 3 times now, and I still do not know what it means. The same holds for entire paragraphs.

Is that sentence really that hard to read? I mean, it's definitely overly flowery, but it means almost word-for-word "After many financial crises, there is a lot of economic pessimism around again, even among free-market capitalism's biggest proponents."

Re: After Capitalism?

#18
Nearly 1 billion people have been taken out of extreme poverty in 20 years - Economist Magazine.

Harnessing the energy of people across the planet by letting them trade with each other has so clearly been a disaster for everyone, has it? Essentially, isn't this capitalism with all its fault lines? One way or another it can be got to work for everyone's advantage.

Re: After Capitalism?

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is strongly critiquing the notion that "there will be robots, there is basic income and it's better than what we have now, just because." He labels this notion "Accelerationism", and then the final section tears it apart (even the section discussing it is constantly pointing out its flaws). To wit, the closing paragraph: "Though the times are bad, the accelerationists presume that the state of the left will get be…

>But politics can’t get done by machines. Can't it? Democracy is simply voting, which can easily be handled by machines.

When you go to vote, are you only ever concerned about the mechanical action to place a cross in a box?

There's quite a lot more to politics, and politics in democracy, than just the act of voting.

Re: After Capitalism?

#20
For those struggling with this, the last three paragraphs sum up the author's thesis pretty well.

It's actually more of a critique of current leftist ideas (from a Left perspective) than anything.

quote:

Getting less work seems unlikely to come about without the fight for solidarity, the chief intellectual achievement of the workers’ movement, and one that none of the accelerationists see fit to mention as an ideal worth preserving or even renovating. This is despite the fact that automation—or, more broadly, the increasing precariousness of labor through technologically assisted means—has always been dialectically connected with it. What tech enthusiasts call“disruption” is in fact almost always directed at forms of organization that preserve a modicum of workers’ control over knowledge and the products of labor. Because London taxicabs are controlled by people who have built up impressive maps of one of the world’s most complex cities in their brains, they ought to be replaced by self-driving cars operating on Google Maps. Because high school teachers have professional systems of accreditation and training and have unions to protect these, they must be replaced by lower-paid short-term Ivy-League graduates and cyber charters.

Automation isn’t a neutral, inevitable part of capitalism. It comes about through the desire to break formal and informal systems of workers’ control—including unions—and replace them with managerially controlled and minutely surveilled systems of piecework. An entire political and legal infrastructure has been built up to make these so-called tendencies seem like the natural progression of capitalism, rather than the effects of fights—sometimes simple, sometimes violent—to deprive people of whatever sense of control they have over their work. The only reason such work has ever not been totally shitty is that some attempt to preserve such control was made. This — not some implausible notion of a fully automated postwork future—still remains the surest of utopian impulses, the one most likely to deliver the things we want.

Though the times are bad, the accelerationists presume that the state of the left will get better simply because it can, in principle, get better. An imaginative (if implausible) account of the future, accelerationism is a weak account of how anyone might be persuaded to get there. We recall Lenin’s comment about how communism would be “Soviet power plus the electrification of the whole country.” The accelerationists seem to be telling us: forget about the Soviets, the electricity will do that work for us! But politics can’t get done by machines.

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