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Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

freedom.press

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Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#91

Post by woodman »

hackuser wrote: post #43
Alupis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the spirit of your post, your premise is wrong. Being nationalistic has nothing to do with being conservative; there is no correlation there. Many liberals are blindly nationalistic as well. Intense nationalism does cause conflicts (look at the US and Russia relationship at the moment), often fabricated for pure political gain by controlling/power individuals. Very few individuals look at the core…

> Being nationalistic has nothing to do with being conservative ... I disagree strongly with this point: The more nationalistic parties, pushing nationalistic and nativistic (e.g., anti-immigrant) plicies, are always conservative: The Republicans in the U.S., the Tories and the right-wing extremists in the UK, the Republicans and National Front in France, the LDP in Japan, Likud in Israel, etc. Internationalists, int…

> Internationalists, international cooperation ... are the province of the left and of moderates.

This is the first time I've heard this charge. Consider which group is constantly demonized for globalization, and which group riots at WTO conferences. Democrats, for the last 100 years, have been protectionists.

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#92

Post by cmurf »

hackuser wrote: post #77
cmurf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism has a strong component of devotion, an emotional attachment, to the state. Its a derivative of statism, which itself is a derivative of tribalism. You can have either liberals or conservatives subject to such an emotional appeal to the state. Due to the strong emotional appeal in nationalism, the political ideology is more nuanced. In classic liberalism, power comes from the individual who then grants a r…

Thanks for raising some interesting issues > the political ideology is more nuanced ... I think it requires some research ... I agree on one hand. On the other, any issue like this is much more complicated than what can be presented in an HN comment, so we all need to simplify things a little. > You can have either liberals or conservatives subject to such an emotional appeal to the state In theory, yes. I find this…

Wars are a particularly fine pointed example of nationalism. Woodrow Wilson, Democrat, liberal, World War I. F.D.R., Democrat, liberal, World War II.

Nationalism a tenant of conservatism is absurd. My degree is in political science, it's not widely accepted. Nationalistic sentiment within the U.S. Republican party, and conservative libertarians? Perhaps. But that is a narrow sample.

Widely accepted is the actual denotation of nationalism, which doesn't include left vs right tendencies.

Consider emotional attachment, appeals, devotion, strong desire to easily identify nonbelievers, all part of nationalism. Similar to religious belief, but involves deification of the state (or some idealized future version of it, via violence, like the 2nd coming).

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#93

Post by cmurf »

mirimir wrote: post #75
cmurf wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism has a strong component of devotion, an emotional attachment, to the state. Its a derivative of statism, which itself is a derivative of tribalism. You can have either liberals or conservatives subject to such an emotional appeal to the state. Due to the strong emotional appeal in nationalism, the political ideology is more nuanced. In classic liberalism, power comes from the individual who then grants a r…

> The Bolshevik revolution is an example of a left of center revolution, it certainly was nativist, nationalist, and was not conservative. Actually, it was a fascist coup pretending to be a "left of center revolution".

Untrue. Difficult to have fascism when the state isn't strongly supporting businesses. For the simple version, Mussolini's description is good: fascism is better called corporatism.

Revise your understanding of fascism.

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#94

Post by ionised »

hackuser wrote: post #59
DonaldFisk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SNP (Scottish National Party) isn't nationalist in the usual sense of the word. It's well to the left of, and more liberal than, the other UK parties, with the exception of the Greens, and potentially Labour if Jeremy Corbyn remains leader. It's better described as separatist.

> The SNP (Scottish National Party) isn't nationalist in the usual sense of the word. It's well to the left of, and more liberal than, the other UK parties Thanks; that's a great counter-example. I wonder how the politics works - what draws liberals to support it? Is it the usual xenophobia, or something else? Incidentally: At the time of the referendum, I watched a debate between leading advocates on both sides. A m…

> I wonder how the politics works - what draws liberals to support it? Is it the usual xenophobia, or something else?

I believe the Scottish in support of independece are that way because they are sick of being ruled by a succession of governments in Westminster that they feel do not represent them or serve their interests in any way. The Tories have never been successful in Scotland and yet Scotland is currently under the heel of 10 years of seriously right-wing Tory class warfare.

They would be right in my opinion. I'm British (English) and I believe Scotland should have voted Yes. I feel they would be better off without us. At least they would be able to choose.

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#95

Post by ionised »

kagamine wrote: post #86
BowBun wrote: post #6

For a country whose culture already stifles expression and speech, this is bad news. I'm proud that supposedly so many Japanese stood up to protest these legislative actions. Having lived there, I can say that the government comes across as way more untouchable and heightened than here in the US, and that it takes a LOT before action can be taken against them. The US messing in their politics in order to get more aid…

Had a friend who lived in Japan for 35 years whose opinion of Japanese politics was basically that the ruling party were the largest and most powerful of the triad gangs.

You mean Yakuza, not Triad?

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#96

Post by ionised »

Fando wrote: post #79

If you could redesign a system of government free from major flaws we see today, how would it work? Current systems almost seem to have a tendency to "breed" the types of malevolent, inefficient, greedy and problematic power structures we see. I think that at the root of the problem are natural human flaws. It seems almost certain that given enough time, no matter how well intentioned people are, the cumulative effec…

Some form of sortition probably;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

Basically treat political office as a civic duty, much like jury duty.

Give them a very generous salary and have a maximum term after which they can never be reinstated.

Also ban completely any form of financial lobbying.

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#97

Post by kagamine »

ionised wrote: post #95
kagamine wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had a friend who lived in Japan for 35 years whose opinion of Japanese politics was basically that the ruling party were the largest and most powerful of the triad gangs.

You mean Yakuza, not Triad?

yes

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#98

Post by userulluipeste »

cmurf wrote: post #70
hackuser wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being nationalistic has nothing to do with being conservative ... I disagree strongly with this point: The more nationalistic parties, pushing nationalistic and nativistic (e.g., anti-immigrant) plicies, are always conservative: The Republicans in the U.S., the Tories and the right-wing extremists in the UK, the Republicans and National Front in France, the LDP in Japan, Likud in Israel, etc. Internationalists, int…

Nationalism has a strong component of devotion, an emotional attachment, to the state. Its a derivative of statism, which itself is a derivative of tribalism. You can have either liberals or conservatives subject to such an emotional appeal to the state. Due to the strong emotional appeal in nationalism, the political ideology is more nuanced. In classic liberalism, power comes from the individual who then grants a r…

"Nationalism has a strong component of devotion, an emotional attachment, to the state."

Actually, as the name itself suggests, it is about devotion to the nation not the state. Nationalism never ceased to be promoted, even after ww2, but the attention bias caused much of it to go unnoticed. The so-called "rise" of today's nationalism is in fact more of a rise in public awareness to it from (globally) opposing sides.

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#99

Post by userulluipeste »

hackuser wrote: post #54
RightWingRabble wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalism doesn't lead to wars, massacres and other oppression and brutality. That's tribalism leading to that. Tribalism is one of those built in human behaviors we have that we can't get rid of. People have tried with globalism, with cultural marxism, with communism. The pendulum always swings back toward tribalism because genetics is a powerful force. Nations are the people, not the dirt, as is pretty obvious to…

The meaning of nationalism (and tribalism) is not clearly defined, at least not in this thread. I thought about that as I wrote my comment, but I decided I couldn't cover every contingency ... Without disputing the definitions, I agree with some aspects of what you say, but I disagree about that there is some inevitable bad ending. Generally, as the U.S. shows, it turns out well. The U.S. is filled with the descenden…

"The meaning of nationalism (and tribalism) is not clearly defined"

Wikipedia would have been helpful: "[Nationalism] can be expressed as a belief or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with or becoming attached to one's nation." "Tribalism is [...] a way of thinking or behaving in which people are more loyal to their tribe than to their friends, their country, or any other social group."

None of these in itself implies that it also has to bear a negative emotional charge of any kind. I think you're confusing nationalism/tribalism with xenophobia.

Re: Japanese government dismantles freedom of the press

#100

Post by userulluipeste »

ionised wrote: post #96
Fando wrote: post #79

If you could redesign a system of government free from major flaws we see today, how would it work? Current systems almost seem to have a tendency to "breed" the types of malevolent, inefficient, greedy and problematic power structures we see. I think that at the root of the problem are natural human flaws. It seems almost certain that given enough time, no matter how well intentioned people are, the cumulative effec…

Some form of sortition probably; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition Basically treat political office as a civic duty, much like jury duty. Give them a very generous salary and have a maximum term after which they can never be reinstated. Also ban completely any form of financial lobbying.

I don't know how this worked back then, but what prevents acts of corruption or any other kind of power abuse from the instated public figures' part? BTW, the power itself legitimizes lobbying, so this may sound a little cynical but when you ban means convenient for corruption then it simply goes underground until it finds its way to being legit again in some form. Maybe this is the way it's supposed to be (the cynical part) - the game of life and the ever-present competition inside our species?
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