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Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

theintercept.com

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Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#21

Post by shadowmoses »

blucoat wrote: post #19

> [The media] simply do not see that as their role. For most of them, a posture of “neutrality” and “opinion-free” blankness are the highest values. > ... that’s all one can expect from large sectors of the U.S. media: cowardly neutrality, feigned analytical objectivity ... > Shortly before this article was published this morning, Cuomo re-appeared on Twitter and apparently had a change of heart from last night’s pro…

I think journalists have opinions - and sharing those opinions is a big part of 'news' - whether you like it or not, that's constantly done, either through direct words, or through more subtle means. That's why you have 'conservative' and 'liberal' entities of the news.

Moreover, the media also decides what's important - think about how they've covered Trump vs. Sanders - Trump is selling ratings, they are promoting his message in a way that's unequal to other candidates, and then saying 'oh, we're being neutral.'

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#22

Post by blucoat »

shadowmoses wrote: post #21
blucoat wrote: post #19

> [The media] simply do not see that as their role. For most of them, a posture of “neutrality” and “opinion-free” blankness are the highest values. > ... that’s all one can expect from large sectors of the U.S. media: cowardly neutrality, feigned analytical objectivity ... > Shortly before this article was published this morning, Cuomo re-appeared on Twitter and apparently had a change of heart from last night’s pro…

I think journalists have opinions - and sharing those opinions is a big part of 'news' - whether you like it or not, that's constantly done, either through direct words, or through more subtle means. That's why you have 'conservative' and 'liberal' entities of the news. Moreover, the media also decides what's important - think about how they've covered Trump vs. Sanders - Trump is selling ratings, they are promoting…

I agree with you that Trump gets a ridiculously disproportionate amount of news -- not a surprise, considering how much money covering him makes -- but that's not how I interpreted the article's complaints. It read to me like the author was upset that the media weren't actively denouncing him, like they had some moral obligation to. If I've misinterpreted that then that's my error.

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#23

Post by shadowmoses »

blucoat wrote: post #22
shadowmoses wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think journalists have opinions - and sharing those opinions is a big part of 'news' - whether you like it or not, that's constantly done, either through direct words, or through more subtle means. That's why you have 'conservative' and 'liberal' entities of the news. Moreover, the media also decides what's important - think about how they've covered Trump vs. Sanders - Trump is selling ratings, they are promoting…

I agree with you that Trump gets a ridiculously disproportionate amount of news -- not a surprise, considering how much money covering him makes -- but that's not how I interpreted the article's complaints. It read to me like the author was upset that the media weren't actively denouncing him, like they had some moral obligation to. If I've misinterpreted that then that's my error.

Yeah, don't know. Agree w/ you that journalists/ reporters do not need to have moral obligations, though [unless they make moral statements, and are not electing to do so in certain cases] - but even that's a slightly different issue.

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#24

Post by seivan »

harmegido wrote: post #15

I just watched Schindler's List again recently. I kept thinking, "how could this happen?"

You're comparing a religion and political ideology where large parts of its 1600 000 000 followers think it's okay to kill apostates... with Jewish and Roma targeted for genocide because of eugenics?

You do realize Islam isn't a race. Ex-Muslims aren't dead nor acquired whiter skin tone.

Trumps is an idiot, that goes without saying. But people like sure do help him the best you can.

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#25

Post by geezer »

seivan wrote: post #24
harmegido wrote: post #15

I just watched Schindler's List again recently. I kept thinking, "how could this happen?"

You're comparing a religion and political ideology where large parts of its 1600 000 000 followers think it's okay to kill apostates... with Jewish and Roma targeted for genocide because of eugenics? You do realize Islam isn't a race. Ex-Muslims aren't dead nor acquired whiter skin tone. Trumps is an idiot, that goes without saying. But people like sure do help him the best you can.

> You're comparing a religion and political ideology where large parts of its 1600 000 000 followers think it's okay to kill apostate

People in civilized societies are judged based on their actions, not their beliefs.

If President Trumps ends up gassing 3-6 million Muslims in the United States, it wouldn't be any less worse than Hitler gassing 6 million Jews.

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#26

Post by geezer »

rdancer wrote: post #20

As much as I love Greenwald, he can be really facetious. Trump said that immigrant Muslims should not be admitted, not citizens. Some hacks reporting a late-night e-mail that was put straight few hours later notwithstanding. The article notes that at the very end, but why not link it from where the allegation is made? And, ladies and gentlemen, we bomb Muslims, day and night, and have been doing so non-stop since the…

Its naive to believe that President Trump's _temporary_ ban on Muslim immigration will be the end of the story. It will just be the start of a nightmare. It took about 10 years for the gas chambers to fire up after Hitler came to power.

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#27

Post by harmegido »

seivan wrote: post #24
harmegido wrote: post #15

I just watched Schindler's List again recently. I kept thinking, "how could this happen?"

You're comparing a religion and political ideology where large parts of its 1600 000 000 followers think it's okay to kill apostates... with Jewish and Roma targeted for genocide because of eugenics? You do realize Islam isn't a race. Ex-Muslims aren't dead nor acquired whiter skin tone. Trumps is an idiot, that goes without saying. But people like sure do help him the best you can.

There will be someone left to speak for me, because every time I see this kind of bigotry I will speak up for my fellow humans.

Pre-judging someone based on a trait they have/belief they share is not acceptable.

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#28

Post by morsch »

erbo wrote: post #9

The President has the authority to suspend entry of any class of aliens for any length of time, for any reason. [1] Jimmy Carter did exactly that in 1980, disallowing Iranians entry into the country, and for similar reasons. [2] That's only the most recent historical example. [1] 8 USC § 1182(f); see https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1182 [2] http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261062/carter-banned-irani... ; s…

Ok, so there's two things one can read from this: 1) It's okay to prevent (alien) muslims (henceforth A) from entering the country because it was okay to prevent Iranians from entering (B). 2) It's legal for the president to do A because it was legal to do B.

Proposition 1 is obviously false: whether or not it was okay to prevent one group (based, in B, on nationality) from entering simply has, in the general case, no bearing on whether or not it is okay to prevent an entirely different group (based, in A, on religion). Even if the two groups were closely related, it wouldn't mean much, but this is out of scope since they aren't closely related. On a sidenote, Carter allowed for entry for "compelling and proven humanitarian reasons".

Proposition 2 I cannot judge since IANAL -- and I'd hope the president can't just make up completely arbitrary rules --, but if true, makes the whole debate even more ominous: it's not just an empty threat.

The two propositions are, again obviously, unrelated; the set of legal actions is much larger than the set of sensible actions, for everyone of us but particularly a person with power.

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#29

Post by pvaldes »

geezer wrote: post #25
seivan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing a religion and political ideology where large parts of its 1600 000 000 followers think it's okay to kill apostates... with Jewish and Roma targeted for genocide because of eugenics? You do realize Islam isn't a race. Ex-Muslims aren't dead nor acquired whiter skin tone. Trumps is an idiot, that goes without saying. But people like sure do help him the best you can.

> You're comparing a religion and political ideology where large parts of its 1600 000 000 followers think it's okay to kill apostate People in civilized societies are judged based on their actions, not their beliefs. If President Trumps ends up gassing 3-6 million Muslims in the United States, it wouldn't be any less worse than Hitler gassing 6 million Jews.

Sorry, but Trump is not the president

Re: Trump’s “Ban Muslims” Proposal Is Not Far Outside the U.S. Mainstream

#30

Post by seivan »

harmegido wrote: post #27
seivan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're comparing a religion and political ideology where large parts of its 1600 000 000 followers think it's okay to kill apostates... with Jewish and Roma targeted for genocide because of eugenics? You do realize Islam isn't a race. Ex-Muslims aren't dead nor acquired whiter skin tone. Trumps is an idiot, that goes without saying. But people like sure do help him the best you can.

There will be someone left to speak for me, because every time I see this kind of bigotry I will speak up for my fellow humans. Pre-judging someone based on a trait they have/belief they share is not acceptable.

You won't prejudge the national socialist beliefs I presume?
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