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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#261
post #142

I liked this article, it went straight to the heart of the issue. Many take a cheap shot at religion (in most cases Muslims) when they talk about this sort of stuff. But this article talks about morality as the factor. While moral codes are often a huge part of religions they are also a huge part of other groups of society, such as animal rights groups, labour unions and even criminal organisations. To me this seems…

> While moral codes are often a huge part of religions they are also a huge part of other groups of society, such as animal rights groups, labour unions and even criminal organisations. Very true indeed, but I think that religion still deserves particular attention because it's the most prominent institution that promotes believing claims without evidence as a virtue, in particular in the area of morality, which pave…

> claims without evidence

I think there is plenty of evidence. I don't feel like I'd change your mind in an Internet comment by laying out particulars, but I just wanted to note that plenty of people of faith don't ascribe to the idea of blind faith.

> what is moral is a scientific question

What evidence do you have to support this statement? I can see how you could start with that assumption and find ways to justify it, but I don't see how you can conclusively prove the initial premise. My point is that it seems like you have a moral code that states that all things can be proven within the bounds of science and what is observable by humans, no?

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The Toxoplasma Of Rage", an excellent essay[0] by Scott Alexander, points out that sadly there are only two choices for activists today - behave nicely, gather universal agreement to their cause and then get completely ignored, or draw attention to their cause by being so hated by everyone, that half of the audience starts working against the cause just in spite. [0] - http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxopl…

I know what you're saying but it isn't true. Let's look at 2 examples, the LGBT community and Feminism. LGBT celebrates its differences. It welcomes everyone. It is open minded and tolerant. Feminism bullies, ridicules, excludes, creates us/them divides and is continually hypocritical. You could not have 2 more different different approaches. You don't need to be a bully. You don't need to threaten or ridicule or div…

Isn't that an apples to oranges comparison? The LGBT community isn't a sociopolitical belief-based community, it's a community defined by its members' inborn state. You can't bully someone in and out of being what they are.

Feminism, on the other hand, is a sociopolitical movement, based on a particular understanding of history and what the future should look like. Sociopolitical movements (for example, the various anti-LGBT movements out there), can bully because they are trying to change society's beliefs.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lastly: From the tenor of your comment, it would seem that my writings have touched a nerve. Let's establish one thing first, and it's that I'm not a teenager and therefore my command of language is such that I have some degree of control over the tone I convey in writing. It does not take a struck nerve to litter someone's writing with fucks and write pointedly. Your writing style is as artificial as mine and I fi…

When you talk about "logical discourse" you are merely saying that if you disagree with someone, they are being illogical. When you talk about "a respect for facts" you are merely saying that if you disagree with someone, they are being disingenuous about their observations. When you talk about "mental patterns of hate", which is a real mouthful for "hateful behavior", what you are saying is that if someone claims gr…

Well, I think it's a logical consequence of how morality works. It's basically a matter of definition: Your moral values are as I gathered "logical discourse", a "respect for facts" and an avoidance of "mental patterns of hate". Therefore if you are making a moral judgment about people, you are going to be judging them based on these and probably other values. But it's an essentially syntactic substitution of terms without giving a semantics to those terms.

> Also, it is patently false to say I only label positions I disagree with as "hateful behavior." I would agree that there are certain standards in our society which should be changed, but I find some of the speech and actions taken in support of my positions to be intellectually void and repellent

Well I don't think we should distinguish between the position and its means of implementation. Actually, that's exactly what I don't want to do. The means and the end, morally, aren't different. Every means is itself an end, composed with other ends in order to arrive at a final end. Moral judgment is valid at every stage. If the position is the tip of the spear, the means are the shaft.

So you are making a distinction that I am not. If you label something as "mental patterns of hate" and rejecting it on those grounds, you are, by definition making a moral judgment against it. Conversely I assume you have some set of values that constitute your moral framework and thus if you are judging something to be morally wrong, there exist some values that you would say are being violated. This, to me, is merely manipulation of definitions.

So the point I'm trying to convey is that the meaning of your morality beyond its internal model in your head depends on two things, which happen to be the same thing in different lights: How you interpret your observations into your moral framework, and how you reify your moral judgments into reality.

Again, it is the gap between the mental and the physical where good and evil fight.

What you consider hateful, I may not consider hateful, and conversely. What you consider illogical, I may consider logical, and conversely. And so on and so forth.

I have given you a concrete working example to demonstrate my moral logic. If you want me to engage yours in anything more specific than these generalities, I'd like you to produce a particular instance of this hateful pseudo-activism you condemned in the original post. Otherwise I'm not sure what more is to be said?

> Good cannot come of activism if hate is the driving force behind it. Expecting otherwise is like giving advice while being motivated by anger, then being surprised when some harm has resulted. Expecting good to come of activism that's guided and motivated by anger is like being a parent while working out your anger from childhood traumas, then being surprised when some harm comes of this.

I really don't want people unmotivated by anger to be activists. It means they don't actually perceive a personal injustice. If they don't perceive an injustice, what are they pushing for? There are too many activists who are along for the ride because they think they stand to gain from being an activist for the sake of being an activist. An angry activist is one who has a material goal in being an activist, who has some grievance or conflict that they demand be resolved. Anger is a valid emotion. Anger can be logical. Anger can flow from factual experience. Anger need not be hateful.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This goes for select subsets of both ends of the political spectrum, and select subgroups on both sides of any hot-button issue. This is fucking garbage. It's garbage because the status quo isn't neutral, the status quo isn't necessarily just, and actually, the status quo is upheld with lots and lots of violence that isn't considered controversial. For example, France is clamping down really hard on civil liberties…

1. Parent post was not talking about statu quo. 2. Statu quo is not what you try to make out of your examples (there is no such thing as an unanimous moral framework in the West, and what you describe is not even building a statu quo, but more chaos).

But he did mention the ends of the political spectrum. The absence of the middle, the status quo makes an implicit statement. The middle is just as culpable. People who are comfortable with things as they are are not neutral. They ought to be put on the same footing as people who are not comfortable with things as they are.

There is a de facto unanimous moral framework in the West. It is the moral framework of the states and supranational institutions like the UN, the IMF, etc. Authoritarian ideologies always try to make themselves invisible, neutral, but they are not.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling people out on their bullshit isn't bullying. When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. The difference between calling people out on their bullshit versus bullying is this: In "calling people out" -- people are shown their self-contradiction in such a way that they are gi…

> When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression. You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression. > It becomes bullying when people are only vilified, placed in an irredeemable category, the…

> Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression.

Oppression is usually viewed by oppressors as putting pressure on the oppressed to behave properly.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#267
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This goes for select subsets of both ends of the political spectrum, and select subgroups on both sides of any hot-button issue. This is fucking garbage. It's garbage because the status quo isn't neutral, the status quo isn't necessarily just, and actually, the status quo is upheld with lots and lots of violence that isn't considered controversial. For example, France is clamping down really hard on civil liberties…

The principle of relativity is for velocities not morality.

The principle of relativity arises from observer dependence in measured quantities. Human experience is observer dependent. Morality is a logical system based on human observations. Therefore morality has a logic of relativity.

Relativity comes up in mathematics all the time. Relativity isn't the idea that there is no one truth, it is the idea that there is one truth but it cannot be described from a single point of view. The points of view are relative, but they are all views into the same truth.

Morality can be the same way. You can be a moral realist and still acknowledge that apprehension of morality is observer dependent. Then the game becomes figuring out the rules of relativity for morality. That is, figuring out how to communicate moral perceptions and judgments between people.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling people out on their bullshit isn't bullying. When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. The difference between calling people out on their bullshit versus bullying is this: In "calling people out" -- people are shown their self-contradiction in such a way that they are gi…

> When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression. You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression. > It becomes bullying when people are only vilified, placed in an irredeemable category, the…

You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression.

I have, in actuality, been the subject of ethnic/racially based harassment, to the point where the police got involved. (The perpetrators were caught, but I was pressured by the police to not file charges.)

I grew up in a part of the country where the family had to drive 45 miles to visit with friends who were also asian, but not the exact same ethnic group. Yes, I know a little about actual oppression. Yes, there were other weird group hazings I experienced in my youth.

When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned. This is a normal human defense mechanism.

The default human reaction is to label the different as the wrong and the other. The normal human defense mechanism, when not properly cultivated and educated, is precisely the psychological foundation of oppression. I know this first hand.

Do you know why the Freedom of Speech is enshrined in the US Constitution? It's precisely because normal human defense mechanisms result in the outright oppression of those with different points of view. And it's precisely this sort of lack of self-awareness and self-examination that allows normal people to take on the role of oppressor.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head Then it isn't violence. Bullying implies violence. You're describing something else.

One of the most stereotypical cases of bullying is to be openly mocked and made fun of in front of your peers for a perceived difference. There's no violence involved in that. Have a look at what constitutes bullying [0] Violence is but a subset of it. Unless we were to water down the definition of violence to include any manner of ridicule. At which, you're diluting the definition of violence under the guise of stay…

There has been an extraordinary semantic creep of the term "violence" under feminism. Everything they don't like is classified as violence, from one's mere gaze, to so-called "cyberviolence", to one's body posture, tone of voice, lack of social deference, or any other perceived arrogation of status.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emotional tone is communication of values. If one does not allow people to communicate their values verbally, then they will communicate them in less productive ways. Like downvoting/upvoting people based on values. Even worse, it selects for people who argue without acknowledging their values. Even worse, personally, if one personally doesn't acknowledge their emotions and their value systems, then they risk hobblin…

I like this comment too, but find it a few paragraphs too long. I suggest you edit down after writing - here is a great guide: https://www.msu.edu/~jdowell/135/King_Everything.html (Stephen King's "Everything You Need to Know About Writing Successfully – in Ten Minutes") After you've written all that, spend a few minutes eliminating some of it. you would be one of the best contributors after doing so. no, you don't a…

Thanks. I think there is an antagonism between trying to be conversational, which entails rambling, circling back, and exposing one's thought processes to others, and writing a compact, polished piece of writing. I prefer to leave my scatterbrained thoughts in Internet comments because I see it more as verbal conversation than written communication.
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