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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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251–260 of 338 posts

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you're saying but it isn't true. Let's look at 2 examples, the LGBT community and Feminism. LGBT celebrates its differences. It welcomes everyone. It is open minded and tolerant. Feminism bullies, ridicules, excludes, creates us/them divides and is continually hypocritical. You could not have 2 more different different approaches. You don't need to be a bully. You don't need to threaten or ridicule or div…

The topic is about violence. Feminists aren't violent; in fact they're a reaction against gender-based violence. > Yet, I strongly oppose feminism. I believe in equality, but not equality for one gender or skin colour or sexual orientation. That means you're a feminist. I'm sorry you're not able to get your definitions straight. > Bullying is not required. Calling people out on their bullshit isn't bullying.

Actually, what you call "calling people out" is literally indistinguishable from bullying. You justify bullying another person with "bullshit" qualifiers from a imaginary moral high-ground while in reality being no better than the bullies you grew up with middle school.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#252
post #202
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop posting inflammatory ideological rants to Hacker News. Please also stop posting personal attacks, which this comment crosses into and which you've done before. Those are not allowed here.

I have often appreciated your quick interventions to stop snark and abuse on this message board. But this doesn't seem right. This thread by its definition is controversial and lends itself to subjective option and heated discussion, more than others. At what point does opinion become 'ideology' as every single comment can be described as such, who decides the thin line between ideology and opinion and worse cross it…

'stdcredzero made a pretty straightforward and neutral point about the interplay between activism, outrage, identity politics and cliques. He didn't single anyone out and was at pains to point the finger up and down the left right spectrum.

'danharaj responded by cherry picking a quote, calling it "fucking garbage", and then writing a short essay about why 'stdcredzero is a bad person.

Just because a comment doesn't contain the string "LOL UMAD" doesn't mean it's civil. There are very few occasions where a comment whose purpose is to single someone else on HN out as a bad person will survive, and I'm glad of that.

I'm glad I found this weird little thread, though, because I think those 'stdcredzero comments are great.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling people out on their bullshit isn't bullying. When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. The difference between calling people out on their bullshit versus bullying is this: In "calling people out" -- people are shown their self-contradiction in such a way that they are gi…

> When the effect is merely to pressure, and not to convince, then in that particular context, people who may have been legitimately oppressed have (temporarily) become the oppressors. Putting pressure on someone to behave themselves isn't oppression. You can't possibly have gone through life without seeing actual oppression. > It becomes bullying when people are only vilified, placed in an irredeemable category, the…

>When people refuse to behave themselves, they get shunned.

and who decides what behavior is acceptable? you? don't make me laugh.

you, and those like you, are bullies. plain and simple. cut and dry. black and white.

some might even call you "thought-bullies."

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head Then it isn't violence. Bullying implies violence. You're describing something else.

>>Bullying implies violence. That is incorrect. Dictionary definition: "Persistent acts intended to make life unpleasant for another person." So if I followed you around HN for the rest of the week responding to all postings/comments with insults and browbeating, that would be completely non-violent but still bullying. https://www.wordnik.com/words/bullying

I mean if we're going to use that definition, then the shirt itself was harassment.

Or is it just if I'm oblivious to the harassment I cause & don't care to find out, then it's somehow morally superior to someone repeatedly and strenuously asking me to stop?

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well I strongly disagree with this. I see no reason to believe civility and meaningful communication are directly correlated. Quite the contrary. Forcing others to maintain a tone you find pleasant (poorly defined variable) strips an entire sideband from a conversation. What's up with the insistence that everyone be warm and fuzzy at all times anyway?

Communication requires logic and logic requires the presentation of counter-examples. Wrapping counter-examples in warm fuzzies is merely obfuscation; it's a third-rate management technique.

Emotional tone is communication of values. If one does not allow people to communicate their values verbally, then they will communicate them in less productive ways. Like downvoting/upvoting people based on values. Even worse, it selects for people who argue without acknowledging their values. Even worse, personally, if one personally doesn't acknowledge their emotions and their value systems, then they risk hobbling their self-understanding. It contributes to the introspection illusion[1]. I think this happens a lot on the Internet in the 'rational discourse' communities (like HN, or LW, etc.): You can't choose not to be emotional. You can merely fail to express your emotions, which of course I believe impairs communication. After all, if I thought my own writing was objectionable, I wouldn't write it.

I think there is a similar trend in such communities (cf. Yudkowsky's Politics is the Mind Killer) to pretend to be apolitical, but insisting that one is apolitical merely obfuscates ones political values. Civil tone and apolitical politics are a popular sentiment amongst the type who seek to align their values with rationality.

You can be perfectly logical and also completely emotional. There is no antagonism between the two. Logic is emotional. One wouldn't bother writing out a logical argument without feeling it has some worth, right? Value is fundamentally emotional. Emotions are logical: They are responses and interpretations of stimuli that are predictable and behave according to rules that vary from person-to-person but have a common basis in all human beings. They have meaning, they can be analyzed and synthesized, and they can be communicated to others just like logical propositions and proofs.

Failing to communicate emotionally can lead to strong emotions on two sides of a discussion. One can think of it as boosting a signal to try to get it through. If one or both sides are unreceptive to the other's emotions, then this leads to a death spiral for the conversation. I think it is this phenomenon, the failure to communicate emotionally, which is being conflated with the presence of emotion. The solution isn't to maintain politeness and throw out emotions altogether, it is to learn how to spot breakdowns in communication and bring them into the conversation so they can be resolved.

Breakdowns in logic happen all the time. If one values rational discourse highly, then these are considered important to resolve, not ignore. God knows I've stood in front of a blackboard trying to get a mathematician to explain something to me, with the explanation failing to get through to me. I once spent 2 hours trying to construct the tensor of two vector spaces because I was a wee undergrad and constructing such widgets was new to me, but I had a patient grad student to guide me along. The breakdowns in logical communication were immense, and certainly there was communication of frustration and reassurance. Ironically in such a dry, logical matter, the emotional communication was excellent and the logical communication-- not so much.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introspection_illusion

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The topic is about violence. Feminists aren't violent; in fact they're a reaction against gender-based violence. This is board with many nerds. It is fair to say that we have all been bullied to some degree. Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head, but it is far more violent than anything feminism complains about. And Doctor Matt Taylor was bullied for what clothing he…

> Bullying may not be violent to the degree that it physically hits people over the head Then it isn't violence. Bullying implies violence. You're describing something else.

One of the most stereotypical cases of bullying is to be openly mocked and made fun of in front of your peers for a perceived difference. There's no violence involved in that.

Have a look at what constitutes bullying [0]

Violence is but a subset of it.

Unless we were to water down the definition of violence to include any manner of ridicule. At which, you're diluting the definition of violence under the guise of staying steadfast on the definition of bullying necessarily including violence.

[0] http://www2.gov.bc.ca/myhr/article.page?ContentID=44eaf3f0-f...

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd certainly agree that the use of violence should be minimal, and should contain no element of vengefulness; but I'd say that preaching full nonviolence almost necessarily ends in either hypocrisy or persecution. My reference for colonial Pennsylvania is _Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America_, by David Hackett Fisher. Pennsylvania was a remarkable place, with a lot of very impressive accomplishments. Fis…

I think that you (or your source) are reading too much into the actions of Quakers in Pennsylvania. Quakers like all people are fallible, and Quakerism especially embraces the idea of continuing revelation and moving beyond previous barbarisms. There were early Quakers who did own slaves for example. While there were actions that us modern Quakers would not condone, I don't know of any interpretations of history (oth…

Again, I would just say, read _Albion's Seed_ -- with a close eye on its sources, of course.

I certainly do condemn pacifism, because it doesn't work; but at the same time, I'm pretty thoroughly impressed with most of the Quakers' accomplishments, and I certainly accept the importance of using minimal force and humane policies.

I should also add that I was too hard on the Scotch-Irish in my previous post. _Albion's Seed_ discusses the conditions that shaped them: for 500 years, from the foundation of Scotland to Prince Charlie's rising, every king of England except three invaded Scotland, was invaded by the Scots, or both; and in every one of these invasions, the Scotch-Irish bore the brunt of it.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#258

A more fundamental question is why morality - especially the kind that allows for violence against non-followers - exists at all. I hypothesize that morality was initially invented to subdue the masses into servitude - obey the alpha male, and slay those who do not. The logical next step would be to consider outsiders as disobedient to the alpha male until they accept his rule. Religions are essentially this principl…

> I hypothesize that morality was initially invented to subdue the masses into servitude [...]

I would suggest that nothing was invented, it just happened. It's something between a necessity for and a side effect of the evolution of social structures in a species. In order to reap the benefits of social cooperation in a species, evolution has to find a solution to the free rider problem as cooperation isn't stable otherwise, and morality is that solution, which also can be found in species other than humans.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I third this opinion. I didn't / wouldn't upvote it but primarily due to the tone: it should be edited down and a bit more civil. That's it. No major objection from me. The note from Dang is good, it can help steer the commenter for the future.

Well I strongly disagree with this. I see no reason to believe civility and meaningful communication are directly correlated. Quite the contrary. Forcing others to maintain a tone you find pleasant (poorly defined variable) strips an entire sideband from a conversation. What's up with the insistence that everyone be warm and fuzzy at all times anyway?

It's the rules of HN:

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

if you want an awful toxic place, go to any other forum on the Internet with as many readers. There you can find knee-jerk, shallow, abusive arguments from people who, actually, don't even mean it and often have nothing to say. The reason you enjoy HN is because it has rules against this kind of discourse.

jsprogrammer's reply to you is a great example: it is a very civil comment that follows the discourse here, i.e. is written in the exact opposite way from what it argues for. It would not be improved if intsead it read, in full, "only third-rate management cocksuckers need to obfuscate everything in warm fuzzies."

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communication requires logic and logic requires the presentation of counter-examples. Wrapping counter-examples in warm fuzzies is merely obfuscation; it's a third-rate management technique.

Emotional tone is communication of values. If one does not allow people to communicate their values verbally, then they will communicate them in less productive ways. Like downvoting/upvoting people based on values. Even worse, it selects for people who argue without acknowledging their values. Even worse, personally, if one personally doesn't acknowledge their emotions and their value systems, then they risk hobblin…

I like this comment too, but find it a few paragraphs too long. I suggest you edit down after writing - here is a great guide: https://www.msu.edu/~jdowell/135/King_Everything.html (Stephen King's "Everything You Need to Know About Writing Successfully – in Ten Minutes")

After you've written all that, spend a few minutes eliminating some of it. you would be one of the best contributors after doing so. no, you don't actually need to swear but can if you want to. good luck.

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