Live data from Hacker News

Neuroscientists find new support for Chomsky’s “internal grammar” thesis

nyu.edu

91–95 of 95 posts

Re: Neuroscientists find new support for Chomsky’s “internal grammar” thesis

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The notion of innate grammers has been pretty much replaced with evidence that you get much better and more human like performance (and the ability to actually learn the bloody things) out of RNNs and the like. No not really. Barring concrete physiological evidence, innateness is simply an unfalsifiable position. I do think you can say that consensus among scientists might have shifted against innateness, but that…

Dammit, why do I always get carried away discussing details and forget the main point? That, what you say- that's the business. An RNN (any ANN) is not a human brain. It is one model of the human brain, based on our very limited understanding of human brains. It doesn't matter what ANNs can and cannot do, how well or bad they perform, it tells us nothing much about how we do language; or vision, motion, decision-maki…

> It is one model of the human brain

No it isn't. It's loosely inspired, but the goal is to make something that works, not to simulate what we know of the human brain. There's a different field, computational neuroscience, which does try to make faithful models of the human brain.

Re: Neuroscientists find new support for Chomsky’s “internal grammar” thesis

#92

I suspect we have a "grammar" which is based on massively parallel pattern matching over a sequence of symbols of bounded length. (I.e. why we deal with ambiguities well, but not long sentences.)

if it's so massively parallel, why do I read your comment left to right one word at a time? why garden path sentences that mislead us as we build up an erroneous parse? sure there's some fuzzy pattern matching, but lexical parsing doesn't seem so massively parallel to me - more like a huge lookup table of fuzzy matches (including whole phrases, I don't have to say much about how I'm never gonna give you up, before th…

Text is serial because it is based upon speech which, being sound, is necessarily serial. Grammars structure serial representations.

I wonder if the serial limitation is purely historical, or if our intelligence system is somehow fundamentally unable to process massively parallel transmission, even if such has been available during our evolution?

Certainly, we recall associations in a seemingly massively parallel fashion, but our conscious thought is apparently serial. We think this, then that... wait, isn't this really that? There may be non-deterministic threads going in the background, but they are more about association or "fit" than working something out.

We also model things narratively, a serial representation which is also a nice match for events over time - also serial.

BTW: didn't spot the error at first. But I've seen typos in books on second or later readings, which (evidently) also eluded the author and copy editor.

Re: Neuroscientists find new support for Chomsky’s “internal grammar” thesis

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if it's so massively parallel, why do I read your comment left to right one word at a time? why garden path sentences that mislead us as we build up an erroneous parse? sure there's some fuzzy pattern matching, but lexical parsing doesn't seem so massively parallel to me - more like a huge lookup table of fuzzy matches (including whole phrases, I don't have to say much about how I'm never gonna give you up, before th…

Text is serial because it is based upon speech which, being sound, is necessarily serial. Grammars structure serial representations. I wonder if the serial limitation is purely historical, or if our intelligence system is somehow fundamentally unable to process massively parallel transmission, even if such has been available during our evolution? Certainly, we recall associations in a seemingly massively parallel fas…

Sound is serial, and it isn't. Even for the purpose of raw analysis of things like the frequency spectrum, you need a certain sized frame of audio. One or two instantanteous samples won't give you anything. Conversely, we could argue that images are also serial, because we can rasterize them as pixels on a grid, from upper left, to lower right. Anything that can be encoded or approximated by 1's and 0's is serial.

How do we really hear? How do we hear speech? Though the audio is constantly in oscillating motion, tracing an amplitude graph in time, we perceive audio as snapshots: images are formed in our mind which persist. We chunk the audio into frames. Speech understanding probably doesn't take place until a whole frame of audio is assembled and delimited into phonemes. That speech frame appears in the mind as a unit which is randomly accessed; we do not imagine we have a "read write head" which can only retrieve one phoneme at a time, and only in one direction.

Re: Neuroscientists find new support for Chomsky’s “internal grammar” thesis

#94
Math, computation, grammars, are just models, syntax, that we sometimes use to consciously express things about the world. We could assign syntax to a system composed of whatever thing and say that is Turing-complete or that follows the productions A->B and B->BB of G_1, an imaginary grammar, just because we can assign to it certain symbols as inputs and others as outputs. Numbers, symbols, don't exist in the real world. Math entities only exist as syntax, as human artifacts. They're language entities. That's why they're based on axioms.

I don't see the point in saying that syntax is physical - I mean, the neurons firing in our brains because of photons getting in our eyes explain how I recognized the shape of a car, not that a 'hypothetical 2D array' gets 'processed' with some 'gradient-based algorithm' unconsciously in our brain. It doesn't make biological sense. Turing didn't even defined what a symbol or a computation is in terms of Physics, he just made a (very cool and beautiful, by the way) model.

Chomsky is simply wrong. He's just thinking here that language is suddenly physical, that we have a grammar-processing CPU in our brains, a form of a Universal Turing Machine! Can this number, '1', be physically somewhere in the world, taking in account modern physics and not some weird Platonism? or we just use it as language to refer to physical entities to talk about them? I do think the latter is the truth. Grammars are math entities which we sometimes use to refer to certain things written in books or other spoken things that just happen to have some physical shape in form of sound waves (words) or even to refer to an imaginary entity we've created with math, just like abstract machines. I don't think there's some weird computational thing going on in my head, that's just an oxymoron. Just neurons firing, blood being pumped, neurotransmitters being sent, in all its glorious and mysterious nature. The mind, on the other hand, exists as a high-level feature of some parts of the bigger brain system, it's caused by real things; that mind that lets us do conscious calculations. But that 'Universal Grammar' wouldn't be inside my mind anyway because it's supposed to be unconscious. It wouldn't be a feature of the mind-spanning parts of the brain anyway.

In the end, it's just the whole Nietzschean critique of mistaking language with reality all over again.

I cannot recommend John Searle's work on the subject enough, like the book 'The Rediscovery Of The Mind'. He explains all of this way way better than me.

P.S: Yes, if you think hard about it, this logically implies that a Strong AI won't ever exist. Sorry, Skynet!

P.S.2: Sorry for the long post and possible grammatical mistakes, I'm not a native. And I sincerely hope you enjoyed this post even if you don't agree with me. Have a nice day!

Re: Neuroscientists find new support for Chomsky’s “internal grammar” thesis

#95
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If it were just pattern matching that grammatical error wouldn't bother you at all even if you notice it, you would just go with the most likely fuzzy interpretation. I actually had to read the sentence about 3 times, and force myself to read it slowly word by word, before I spotted it. We often don't read one word at a time. I agree with you that "massively parallel" is probably drastically overstating it, though.

> "massively parallel" is probably drastically overstating it, though. Think of a single-core processor executing instructions one at a time. Now think of ten billion neurons in your brain out of which a large proportion is active at any time. That is definitely massively parallel.

At that level, yes. But those neurons are not doing high level symbol recognition tied to a grammar.

This is like pointing to the billions of transistors in a typical modern CPU and claiming it is massively parallel despite being single core.

For many things the brain clearly can do multiple things in parallel (I can write one thing while talking about something else, for example). But it most certainly can't usually carry out many high level tasks at the same time.

When it comes to things like recognising words/symbols the question is how high level that actually is, and whether or not the brain has capacity for recognising more than one at the same time, and if so how many.

Post reply on HN