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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#51

Post by vezzy-fnord »

clock_tower wrote: post #48
nostrademons wrote: post #37

One of the most perennially popular courses at my alma mater was entitled "Murder". It was an exploration of the moral justification behind state-sponsored violence, from capital punishment to war to genocide. The realization that most violence is morally motivated comes with interesting quandaries when you consider what the response to such violence should be. Say that society successfully develops the norm that vio…

> What do you do with people who do not agree with this norm? Are you justified in using force against them? Annoyingly enough, the Quakers -- despite being doctrinaire pacifists in all other areas -- answered this question with a resounding "yes". Flogging, stocks, and various other brutalities (I don't remember if they used capital punishment, but I think they did) were routine in colonial Pennsylvania...

Setting aside the question of specific methods (flogging and stocks), I don't see why you consider the idea of force being justified only in cases of retaliating against an attacker to be "annoying". Hard pacifists are extremely rare (Jainists are an exception) and more often than not set up as straw men to promote an agenda.

Capital punishment's issues primarily stem from the fact that you're using an exogenous body of collective action (the state) as a proxy to put people to death, with all the problems of public choice that come as a result.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#52

Post by TeMPOraL »

sp332 wrote: post #32
kej wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna guess that PhDs working on non-profit public domain cancer research probably don't overlap all that much with the taxation-is-theft crowd.

The non-profit is presumably tax-exempt, which doesn't help your point.

Honestly though, non-profit public domain cancer research should be tax-supported.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#53

Post by Natsu »

clock_tower wrote: post #48
nostrademons wrote: post #37

One of the most perennially popular courses at my alma mater was entitled "Murder". It was an exploration of the moral justification behind state-sponsored violence, from capital punishment to war to genocide. The realization that most violence is morally motivated comes with interesting quandaries when you consider what the response to such violence should be. Say that society successfully develops the norm that vio…

> What do you do with people who do not agree with this norm? Are you justified in using force against them? Annoyingly enough, the Quakers -- despite being doctrinaire pacifists in all other areas -- answered this question with a resounding "yes". Flogging, stocks, and various other brutalities (I don't remember if they used capital punishment, but I think they did) were routine in colonial Pennsylvania...

To be fair, any ideal which is unwilling to do this is likely to die out when those who are not opposed to force use force against them.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#54

Post by clock_tower »

vezzy-fnord wrote: post #51
clock_tower wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you do with people who do not agree with this norm? Are you justified in using force against them? Annoyingly enough, the Quakers -- despite being doctrinaire pacifists in all other areas -- answered this question with a resounding "yes". Flogging, stocks, and various other brutalities (I don't remember if they used capital punishment, but I think they did) were routine in colonial Pennsylvania...

Setting aside the question of specific methods (flogging and stocks), I don't see why you consider the idea of force being justified only in cases of retaliating against an attacker to be "annoying". Hard pacifists are extremely rare (Jainists are an exception) and more often than not set up as straw men to promote an agenda. Capital punishment's issues primarily stem from the fact that you're using an exogenous body…

What annoys me about the Quakers isn't quite what you'd thought; it's that the Quakers preached that no one should be violent (up to and including preaching peaceful resistance against military invaders), and then they turned around and practiced violence. It's like if Martin Luther King had sponsored terrorism.

If you're going to preach pacifism to others, you should be pacifist at home. As it is, the Quakers feel like they were using pacifism as a weapon...

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#55

Post by Natsu »

michael_fine wrote: post #24
chroma wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm also not sure what sort of violence the author would classify as not motivated by morality. From the article: > ISIL members believe they are morally justified and obligated to commit acts of terror, while US soldiers accept some loss of civilian lives to achieve the deaths of those terrorists. In all of these scenarios, the violent act is perceived by the perpetrator as virtuous. In the case of ISIS, the author…

Well, pure self-interest would probably fall outside of morality, but one could make an argument that many conscriped ISIS fighters, US soldiers, and perhaps US leaders are acting out of self-interest.

I think things could get a bit ambiguous when you consider something like the Stalinist purges. Those would seem to be an intersection of self-interest and self-righteousness. Although their morality was not theistic, they clearly believed that they must prevail over those who had wronged them.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#56

Post by TeMPOraL »

nostrademons wrote: post #37

One of the most perennially popular courses at my alma mater was entitled "Murder". It was an exploration of the moral justification behind state-sponsored violence, from capital punishment to war to genocide. The realization that most violence is morally motivated comes with interesting quandaries when you consider what the response to such violence should be. Say that society successfully develops the norm that vio…

> What do you do with people who do not agree with this norm? Are you justified in using force against them?

'Eliezer once wrote a pretty neat sci-fi story dealing with exactly that issue. I highly recommend it; it gives a pretty nice workout for one's moral intuitions.

http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/

> There are plenty of implications for startups too, many of whom would not exist without a different conception of social norms than mainstream society.

Now this is a pretty good euphemism for describing Uber's business model. Thank you.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#57

Post by knughit »

clock_tower wrote: post #48
nostrademons wrote: post #37

One of the most perennially popular courses at my alma mater was entitled "Murder". It was an exploration of the moral justification behind state-sponsored violence, from capital punishment to war to genocide. The realization that most violence is morally motivated comes with interesting quandaries when you consider what the response to such violence should be. Say that society successfully develops the norm that vio…

> What do you do with people who do not agree with this norm? Are you justified in using force against them? Annoyingly enough, the Quakers -- despite being doctrinaire pacifists in all other areas -- answered this question with a resounding "yes". Flogging, stocks, and various other brutalities (I don't remember if they used capital punishment, but I think they did) were routine in colonial Pennsylvania...

Do you have citations for your libelous claim?

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#58

Post by kelukelugames »

This is what I ask myself whenever I feel upset, "Am I over reacting? Am I being overly sensitive?"

This is what I ask when someone else is upset at me, "What did I do wrong?"

Hopefully, these questions prevent me from being too self-righteous. The downsides are that it takes me a while to understand my mistakes, and I don't get to be smug and self-satisfied.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#59

Post by kbutler »

Xcelerate wrote: post #2

I believe the author's hypothesis is probably correct. It seems the only way to avoid the "well my case is different; violence is justified in this situation because..."-bias is to instill or promote a common moral that "violence is not okay – ever". It's the only way you can be sure that you're not falling into the same biases that our "enemies" have fallen into. The more I learn about cognitive biases, the more I t…

And when confronted with someone violently harming defenseless children in your care?

Some believe violence is wrong even then, others believe pacifism is wrong then.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#60

Post by muddyrivers »

"Cross-culturally, I looked at why it is incomprehensible to Westerners to kill women for sexual infidelity, yet other parts of the world encourage this practice."

Could the author be more "Westerners"-centric? It is incomprehensible for all the human beings except the fundamentalists from those religious sects.

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