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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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21–30 of 338 posts

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#21
post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

I'm also not sure what sort of violence the author would classify as not motivated by morality. From the article:

> ISIL members believe they are morally justified and obligated to commit acts of terror, while US soldiers accept some loss of civilian lives to achieve the deaths of those terrorists. In all of these scenarios, the violent act is perceived by the perpetrator as virtuous.

In the case of ISIS, the author is correct. They really do believe their actions are an unqualified good. But I seriously doubt that drone pilots in US military feel the same way. They may know where a terrorist leader is, but not be able to isolate him from innocents. In other words, if they had more accurate weaponry and better information, they would harm fewer innocent people. Sadly, current bombs and armies are crude tools. In contrast, lack of ability is the only thing stopping ISIS from killing more innocent people.

I think the author is confused because the term "morality" covers everything from self-defense to religious fanaticism. There's practically nothing it can't explain.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#22
post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

Opposing hypotheses: that violence is a choice driven by self interest; that violence happens when someone is angry enough they don't think things through; that violence is an expression of some primal instinct.

I think all of these are somewhat defensible: the bank robber motivated by self interest; assaults driven by personal arguments; drunken street-fights. But I think the article is very interesting and possibly has a very valid point, especially regarding potentially different approaches.

One thing I would like to see teased out, though, is just how much the 'moral motivation' involved in various violent acts boils down to an assailant retaliating for some non-violent but supposed outrage of their personal dignity. I think a lot of fights could be described that way but that doesn't make it a valid moral motivation.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#23
post #17
post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

Violence could take place in a moral vacuum. Killers just do what they feel like, take what they want, kill randomly or whoever gets in their way. Or, the morality of the situation might be of some concern, but the killing would be motivated by something else, like emotions or practical considerations.

If that's the case then isn't most of the violence in the world not motivated by morals (ie in a vacuum), but also mostly committed by things like spiders, bacteria, cows (or do you ignore the plight of grass?), etc.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#24
post #21
post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

I'm also not sure what sort of violence the author would classify as not motivated by morality. From the article: > ISIL members believe they are morally justified and obligated to commit acts of terror, while US soldiers accept some loss of civilian lives to achieve the deaths of those terrorists. In all of these scenarios, the violent act is perceived by the perpetrator as virtuous. In the case of ISIS, the author…

Well, pure self-interest would probably fall outside of morality, but one could make an argument that many conscriped ISIS fighters, US soldiers, and perhaps US leaders are acting out of self-interest.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#25
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to laugh when I read your post because you use "redistribute wealth" to refer to bank robbery. I have to imagine you have likely referred to taxation as "theft" at least once.

I'm gonna guess that PhDs working on non-profit public domain cancer research probably don't overlap all that much with the taxation-is-theft crowd.

Which part is supposed to convince me otherwise? The PhD? Non-profit public domain cancer research? There's nothing inherent in either of those personal qualities to suggest such.

I have never heard anyone refer to theft as "redistributing wealth" without corresponding usages of "taxation = theft."

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#26
post #17
post #3

What is the opposing hypothesis here? That violence happens in a morally neutral setting? How would you define morally neutral? Could you make a claim, for example, that a bank robber is motivated by morality (the bank robber believes that robbing the bank is the morally correct thing to do - to redistribute wealth to himself?) Under what circumstances would that NOT be the case? Would the bank robber have to say, "w…

Violence could take place in a moral vacuum. Killers just do what they feel like, take what they want, kill randomly or whoever gets in their way. Or, the morality of the situation might be of some concern, but the killing would be motivated by something else, like emotions or practical considerations.

Well, that sometimes happens. There was a case in the UK recently where some gang was just beating up random people on the street for amusement. There are always a few who who just have zero empathy for anyone and find violence 'amusing'.

But thankfully, that's rare.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#27
post #9

> because most gun violence is not committed by people with mental health problems. Rather, it is committed by people who feel they are morally right in committing that act. Is there a reason that delusions of morality don't count as a mental health issue? I don't see these things being mutually exclusive.

> Is there a reason that delusions of morality don't count as a mental health issue?

It's a bit dangerous if you start defining deviations from group norms; which is what delusions of morality would look like from within a group; as mental health issues without some moderating factor. Under those conditions the person who expresses, 'Maybe we shouldn't kill her just because she left the faith,' is mentally ill within an appropriate honour killing culture.

It makes deviation more difficult, and thus retards social progress, if you're prepared to bring the violence of the mental health system into those sorts of issues. Very close to instituting thought crimes.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#28
I wonder how much of the percentage comes from dicators motivated by said 'moral sentiments' and the wars they seem to like getting into.

Those are some of the worst examples of ideologues wanting to force their views on others and sacrifice others based on their 'judgement'.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#29
This is where the article goes wrong for me:

> The commonality was that the primary motivations were moral. This means that the perpetrators of violence felt like what they are doing was morally right.

The first sentence is about motivation. The second is about justification.

As an example, I think back to when I was a little kid and fought with my younger brother. My motivations for hitting him would be things like feelings of anger, shame, or urge to establish dominance. My justification would be something like "he hit me first" or "he deserved it" or "he can't talk to me like that".

The motivation was primary, and something I didn't choose. (I did choose to indulge it, of course.) The justification was secondary and situational, constructed to avoid accountability (both internal and parental). Sometimes it was true and sometimes it wasn't, but it was always secondary. As an adult, the justification (and critical examination of it) is part of my gatekeeping of what motivations I indulge, but it's not the motivator.

I think this matters because fixing the claimed justification won't always change the behavior. This quote from a Jon Ronson article gets at why:

"I once interviewed a prison psychiatrist, James Gilligan, who told me that every murderer he treated was harbouring a central secret – which was that they felt humiliated. 'I have yet to see a serious act of violence that was not provoked by the experience of feeling shamed or humiliated, disrespected and ridiculed,' he said. His conclusion: 'All violence is an attempt to replace shame with self-esteem.'"

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#30
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Violence could take place in a moral vacuum. Killers just do what they feel like, take what they want, kill randomly or whoever gets in their way. Or, the morality of the situation might be of some concern, but the killing would be motivated by something else, like emotions or practical considerations.

If that's the case then isn't most of the violence in the world not motivated by morals (ie in a vacuum), but also mostly committed by things like spiders, bacteria, cows (or do you ignore the plight of grass?), etc.

The article mentions several categories: We analyzed records of all kinds of violence, ranging from war to torture to genocide to homicide. That other stuff seems out of scope.
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