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1984 – When women stopped coding

npr.org

171–180 of 209 posts

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#171

Because women are smarter. I notice that graph compares Computer Science ($50K-$150K/year), to Medical School ($150K--$1M), Law School ($120K--$1M), and Physical Sciences (???). Women see the writing on the wall on High School: Med/Law School offer a clear career path to the upper middle class, while CS offers a muddy path at a middle class life. They also see "rich" old Doctors and Lawyers. They have never seen a "r…

Women have tendency to value job security higher.

Dealing with mainframes is probably kinda secure job. Dealing with personal computers seems very sensitive to economic fluctuations.

Maybe women just kept doing what they have always done. And men conquered this new front where employment is less certain. Just like with gold rushes in the past. So the news is no news.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2013/ted_20131024.htm

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#172

Because women are smarter. I notice that graph compares Computer Science ($50K-$150K/year), to Medical School ($150K--$1M), Law School ($120K--$1M), and Physical Sciences (???). Women see the writing on the wall on High School: Med/Law School offer a clear career path to the upper middle class, while CS offers a muddy path at a middle class life. They also see "rich" old Doctors and Lawyers. They have never seen a "r…

Compensation figures really have to be adjusted for hours worked, stress levels, work environment, schooling required (and associated opportunity cost of lost income), etc.

On top of that I'd also like to see innate cognitive ability factored in.

My guess is that once all the relevant variables are accounted for there's not much difference between the different professions.

It will boil down to what one likes to do. Because that's going to be what you stick with and develop excellence in over time. Medicine, law, and programming are all pretty radically different field, so whether or not you enjoy the work is really going to matter. Pick one you like and you'll do fine.

Note: The top end in annual comp for doctors and lawyers may be $1M but you really can't compare that to the top end in annual comp for CS because many developers at the top end are compensated in equity - which isn't paid out as income on an annual basis.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#173
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument is that "big bucks" in CS is relative and the ceiling is much higher in medicine specifically (and to a certain extent law but you're 100% correct about the oversaturation). Outside of San Francisco and (maybe) NYC, "big bucks" for a programmer with no managerial responsibilities is probably somewhere in the $120-180k range. In my very low cost of living area, it's in the $100-120k range. You jus…

It's about the entire cost. If the average wage for a programmer is 72k, but they can make that for 10 years while the future-doctor is living off student loans, that's worth something; at the end of the 10 year training period for the physician, they've made -200k while the programmer has made +720k. If the physician comes out of school and makes the median wage of 187k, at year 20 the programmer will have grossed 1…

Plus if you are smart enough to make good investment decisions while you are young, as a programmer you are pretty much set to retire by the time doctors start making money.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#174
post #55

A lot of indian women are taking to coding/programming career. Currently, the estimate of number of women programmers in india is about 1,00,000. They are expected to grow to 2,00,00 in less than 10 years.

Yeah, that's because these days starting a new company has become hip.

A job in a large company brings visions of a hall full of clerks these days. So more and more men think of starting companies as the new way to get the kick out of this profession.

Start ups is the new programming.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#175
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sentiment might be jumping the gun. I was just a kid playing around with a DEC PDP-11 when the TRS-80/Apple ][/Commodore Amiga wave of personal computers hit homes (I wasn't exposed to the earlier, Homebrew Computer Club-era, MITS Altair/Apple I/Heathkit H8 wave of personal computers). I clearly recall IT staffing at the company where the PDP-11 came from heavily staffed by women. However, even the daughters of…

My memory of the BBS crowd in the 1980s was that it was something of a mix but definitely skewed male. As someone else said, that's probably the natural outgrown of interest in ham radio, phone phreaking, electronics kits, etc. All of which it's probably fair to say skewed male.

I experienced the same. Even the BBS' that deliberately were set up as social hangouts, which had the greatest ratio of women to men participants, still skewed about 70% male. I never saw it reach parity online, but interestingly, face-to-face parties brought out an evenly-mixed group as BBS users attended with spouses/girlfriends/boyfriends.

I see the current generation computer users' behaviors addressing this imbalance in user population, though not the software development business that produces that utility (lots of hygienic factors adversely impact the majority of jobs in our business now, compared to the state of the business 2+ decades ago).

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#176
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about the entire cost. If the average wage for a programmer is 72k, but they can make that for 10 years while the future-doctor is living off student loans, that's worth something; at the end of the 10 year training period for the physician, they've made -200k while the programmer has made +720k. If the physician comes out of school and makes the median wage of 187k, at year 20 the programmer will have grossed 1…

Plus if you are smart enough to make good investment decisions while you are young, as a programmer you are pretty much set to retire by the time doctors start making money.

LOL, only if by "investment decisions" you mean "luck into a 1 out of 1000 unicorn startup". I don't know a single programmer retired in their 30s who did it with salary and retail investing.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#177
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus if you are smart enough to make good investment decisions while you are young, as a programmer you are pretty much set to retire by the time doctors start making money.

LOL, only if by "investment decisions" you mean "luck into a 1 out of 1000 unicorn startup". I don't know a single programmer retired in their 30s who did it with salary and retail investing.

I think what they mean is:

1. If you are a programmer who can make an above-average salary immediate upon graduating; and

2. If you are able to save an above average amount of that salary; and

3. If you are exceptionally good at traditional investment decisions (stock picking) such that you can consistently beat the market; and

4. You actually decide to use the money from #2 for #3

Then it's possible to retire after a sub-20 year career. In the same sense that it's possible to win the lottery multiple times. Each of the first three points are by definition exceedingly rare as single traits of any one person, let alone all three together.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#178

Because women are smarter. I notice that graph compares Computer Science ($50K-$150K/year), to Medical School ($150K--$1M), Law School ($120K--$1M), and Physical Sciences (???). Women see the writing on the wall on High School: Med/Law School offer a clear career path to the upper middle class, while CS offers a muddy path at a middle class life. They also see "rich" old Doctors and Lawyers. They have never seen a "r…

You don't even need to go all the way up to medicine. According to US News and Report "Best Jobs"[1][2], median salaries for developers in San Francisco ($114,400), ostensibly ground zero for the "shortage", are only a whisker higher than they are for dental hygienists ($112,970) and are considerably lower than for registered nurses ($127,670).

[1] go to US News and World Report "Best Jobs" and drill down by salary and region. Alternatively, you can go to the BLS site - which is what the US News numbers are based on.

[2] I'd also like to acknowledge that these numbers "seem" low to me. It's based on BLS data by region, but dev salaries seem higher than this in SF.

I've posted this on HN a few times, and I've realized that I need to qualify this with a few statements.

I have no problem with nurses earning higher salaries than software developers. It's a difficult and vitally important job and nurses deserve their high salaries and high scores on surveys of professional respect.

Yes, programmers have more upside, but check the BLS directly for higher percentile salaries. It isn't until you get to the 90%ile for devs and nurses (in SF) that the devs earn more, and even then, it's only by a whisker. There are also lots of downsides - age related employment issues can get pretty bad for software developers. I do think that nurses have better job stability, experience few age-related employment issues in middle age, and may actually have better job flexibility (they can't wander off and get a cup of coffee whenever they feel like it like most devs can, but many nursing and medical specialties have remarkable options to scale back on work for a period of time, such as having a kid, without severely compromising the long term career path).

Another complicating factor - anyone who reads a book on PHP can call him or herself a "software developer" (though BLS stats base this on people who use the title or something similar on a tax return, I believe). Nursing, on the other hand, requires a degree and formal licensure. So it's not quite apples-to-apples. Then again, we separate out physicians from nurses, whereas we include very high salary devs in that number, so again, it's complicated and difficult to make these comparisons.

Also, these are numbers for San Francisco - nurses do not out earn developers everywhere. However, the higher concentration of devs in SF/Silicon Valley could skew the numbers as well.

I'll stop here, and simply acknowledge that interpreting this data is certainly more complex than simply listing some medians. My real problem is that most analyses of why group X isn't going into profession Y almost never consider the possibility that this may in fact be a highly rational response to market signals. This isn't the only factor, and the social issues NPR mentions are highly relevant. However, we really do need to explore the extent to which a preference for law, medicine, nursing, pharmacy, dentisty, or even dental hygiene over software development may be highly rational.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#179
post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plus if you are smart enough to make good investment decisions while you are young, as a programmer you are pretty much set to retire by the time doctors start making money.

LOL, only if by "investment decisions" you mean "luck into a 1 out of 1000 unicorn startup". I don't know a single programmer retired in their 30s who did it with salary and retail investing.

Even if its not that. It still doesn't mean - "Blows entire salary to smithereens'. Basic knowledge of savings and investments will put you ahead of bulk of the crowd out there.

As an Indian, I don't know much about the US market. But you guys still have index funds, Roth IRA, IRA and real estate to invest in.

In India even cab drivers who made bad real estate decisions have typically reaped X00% returns. People who made intelligent decisions are already retired. Many programmers in early 90's and even 2000's I know are already make big money in rents. And of course that doesn't mean every body did that.

When it comes to savings and investment there really is a binary crowd that I've seen. The first crowd says its just not possible and doesn't even try, the other crowd tries and some how makes it to be known as those "1 in 1000".

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#180
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL, only if by "investment decisions" you mean "luck into a 1 out of 1000 unicorn startup". I don't know a single programmer retired in their 30s who did it with salary and retail investing.

I think what they mean is: 1. If you are a programmer who can make an above-average salary immediate upon graduating; and 2. If you are able to save an above average amount of that salary; and 3. If you are exceptionally good at traditional investment decisions (stock picking) such that you can consistently beat the market; and 4. You actually decide to use the money from #2 for #3 Then it's possible to retire after…

>>who can make an above-average salary

An above average salary in most common cases is interchangeable with 'living within means'. You can start with whatever little you have and grow.

Its really not about how small you start, its about how quickly and consistently you are making an attempt to grow.

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