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1984 – When women stopped coding

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Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#61

Post by detaro »

DanBC wrote: post #24
purpled_haze wrote: post #6

I have daughters and was not able to get them interested in any computer unless it involves games or social media. But the boys they hang out with are the same way- games only, for the most part. While I played a lot of games on my computer as a youth, I also spent a lot of time trying to program games. Today, I'm a developer. Because of kids' fascination with their phones and tablets, and because programming isn't a…

We have Minecraft which had the potential to create legions of people interested in programming, but the reality is that it's an awful awful introduction to programming. Microsoft could, if they port it to a sensible language and structure, drag in millions of young programmers.

Porting it wouldn't even be necessary IMHO, just adapting and stabilizing a few of the in-game programming mods.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#62

Post by _nedR »

Luc wrote: post #27
cm2187 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is more akin to engineering than factory working. Languages are getting simpler and more powerful but programs are getting more complex. 15 years ago a typical developper didn't need to worry about multithreading, connectivity or security. It's fundamentally an intellectual job and will remain.

From my Western European point of view, I see a lot of these intellectual jobs being outsourced to Slovenia, Poland and even the Philippines. I am advising my kids to have good technical skills but also great people skills.

You advised your kids well, but if this study is to believed, intellectual (including programming jobs) are here to stay for a bit longer :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#63

Post by decode »

chongli wrote: post #46
apalmer wrote: post #34

Doesnt intuitively make sense to me... adult women stopped being drawn into the computerfield at the same time that male children began getting computers as gifts? wouldnt their be a distinct lag effect of maybe 5-7 years between when the boys got their computers and entered the work force? I think the shift probably had more to do with the perception that computer programming was 'important', a lot of the early view…

Your intuition around the 5-7 years lag time would seem to line up pretty damn well with the beginning of the computer revolution in the late 70s. What's the problem, exactly?

I agree. Both the TRS-80 (which was specifically mentioned in the audio version of the article) and the Apple II were released in 1977.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#64

Post by moonchrome »

Wintamute wrote: post #11
purpled_haze wrote: post #6

I have daughters and was not able to get them interested in any computer unless it involves games or social media. But the boys they hang out with are the same way- games only, for the most part. While I played a lot of games on my computer as a youth, I also spent a lot of time trying to program games. Today, I'm a developer. Because of kids' fascination with their phones and tablets, and because programming isn't a…

I think you're right. Back in the 70s/80s/90s kids had to work at using their computers. In order to play a game in the early 80s I had to hook up a tape recorder, fiddle with the volume, tape a 1kb RAM upgrade to the back of the computer and write some code to start playing a game. In the 90s I had to wrestle with AUTOEXEC.BAT and COMMAND.COM for hours to make DOS recognise my sound card. Technical effort and persev…

>Or rather technical effort and hard thinking were the only way to make that magical screen light up.

This is crucial. A lot of people seem to be suggesting that because it's easier to get into computers kids are missing out on programming. But in reality it's the other way around - only the people who were wired up for engineering could get into computers previously and nowadays everyone can use them - you can still get into programming and plenty of kids still do - and it's easier than ever (I had no internet when I started coding - only the F1 help manual of QBASIC and my below basic English - what I could have done if I had all these tutorials available today :( ) - they just aren't the only ones in to computers so they aren't as visible as they used to be.

Think of it like this - every kid probably had some electric toy car or some such toy in the last 20-30 years. But not every kid took that car apart to see what cool shit he could do with the electric engine and batteries.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#65

Post by wernercd »

mattmanser wrote: post #37
hvidgaard wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outsourcing has its uses, but the majority of programming jobs cannot be oursourced, and with time it will become even less profitable to do. However, programming any major system today does require extensive knowledge and I dare say a CS degree as well. It's becoming more and more like an engineering discipline, and as such I think we're going to see a shift towards programming being something you need a college deg…

Programming a major system has absolutely no need of a CS degree. I know and have worked with programmers with and without a CS degree (I'm one of the ones without). As far as I can tell it's no indicator of programmer skill at all.

The issue is the "maturity" of programming as a complete field. Not only is it a "young" (decades old vs say construction) but it's changing dramatically year over year - whats asked for today is different that 5 years ago... what's acceptable 10 years ago is a deathtrap today.

With that being said, how can colleges REALLY train? I got trained at my local community college a few years back (2008-2010) in VB and Cobol. How fast can most places REALLY respond to a moving target like this?

Also, a degree is no indication of programming skill... but neither is having a job. You can churn out code, hopping from one place to another, and still be a shitty programmer.

That's one of the biggest issues... How can you REALLY tell what someone is going to produce? There are no consistent certification processes and no consistent measure of what makes a good programmer.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#66

Post by Ras_ »

lordnacho wrote: post #47
skoczymroczny wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you mean CONFIG.SYS :)

Oh man, that reminds me of the 90s. You used to have this situation where certain games required a certain memory configuration (640K / extended memory). So the first thing I did that ever resembled programming was a boot script that would give you a menu of which game you wanted to play. It would say "1) Beneath a Steel Sky 2) Dune 2 " etc. And they it would prompt you to put the right CDROM in.

Freeing up memory for some games, good memories.

I think my most vivid learning experience was when I managed to delete autoexec.bat.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#67

Post by Alex3917 »

userium wrote: post #19
purpled_haze wrote: post #6

I have daughters and was not able to get them interested in any computer unless it involves games or social media. But the boys they hang out with are the same way- games only, for the most part. While I played a lot of games on my computer as a youth, I also spent a lot of time trying to program games. Today, I'm a developer. Because of kids' fascination with their phones and tablets, and because programming isn't a…

Also, after getting girls interested in programming, one of the problems is how to keep them in tech. Currently, over 40% of women leave tech mid-career, which is more than double the quit rate for men ( https://keepwomen.com/info/aboutus ).

40% attrition is still pretty low compared to most industries though. Compare that to business, finance, law, academia, or teaching. And medicine may have a lower attrition rate, but it's not exactly a great career path these days either.

Even if the tech industry is better for men than for women, it's probably still the best industry for women in absolute terms.

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#68

Post by [deleted] »

Luc wrote: post #27
cm2187 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is more akin to engineering than factory working. Languages are getting simpler and more powerful but programs are getting more complex. 15 years ago a typical developper didn't need to worry about multithreading, connectivity or security. It's fundamentally an intellectual job and will remain.

From my Western European point of view, I see a lot of these intellectual jobs being outsourced to Slovenia, Poland and even the Philippines. I am advising my kids to have good technical skills but also great people skills.

[deleted]

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#69

Post by ajuc »

Luc wrote: post #27
cm2187 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is more akin to engineering than factory working. Languages are getting simpler and more powerful but programs are getting more complex. 15 years ago a typical developper didn't need to worry about multithreading, connectivity or security. It's fundamentally an intellectual job and will remain.

From my Western European point of view, I see a lot of these intellectual jobs being outsourced to Slovenia, Poland and even the Philippines. I am advising my kids to have good technical skills but also great people skills.

As a developer from Poland: why is that relevant that these jobs are outsourced? They don't disappear, just move.

Also "even" is a little harsh, don't you think?

Re: 1984 – When women stopped coding

#70

Post by leaveyou »

userium wrote: post #19
purpled_haze wrote: post #6

I have daughters and was not able to get them interested in any computer unless it involves games or social media. But the boys they hang out with are the same way- games only, for the most part. While I played a lot of games on my computer as a youth, I also spent a lot of time trying to program games. Today, I'm a developer. Because of kids' fascination with their phones and tablets, and because programming isn't a…

Also, after getting girls interested in programming, one of the problems is how to keep them in tech. Currently, over 40% of women leave tech mid-career, which is more than double the quit rate for men ( https://keepwomen.com/info/aboutus ).

The website you linked is deeply discriminatory and offensive to males in tech. "Why do women leave tech?: many women leave tech due to working conditions (low salary, no advancement), work-life balance (too much travelling, commuting) What do women want in the workplace?: flexible working hours, personal development opportunities." What about the males in tech ? They don't deserve better salary and advancements ? They don't deserve work-life balance, flexible hours ? Why don't we help them too ? Everybody wants to help women who leave while they can and no one cares about the males trapped in low paying races to the bottom with no real alternatives. For the low 75% of tech workers it's not help at all that the top 25% earners are all males from Silicon Valley.
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