Who Y Combinator Companies Want • Hacker News Board

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#401

Post by 20years » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #104

ammon wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is definitely true. The filters that companies and recruiters use mostly trend in a meaningful direction. There are a higher percentage of good programmers among MIT grads than SUNY Potsdam grads. But this fact does nothing to help the good programmers who look bad on paper who everyone is ignoring. This is precisely the problem that we're trying to fix with Triplebyte. We want to make actual technical evaluatio…

The filters that companies and recruiters use mostly trend in a meaningful direction. There are a higher percentage of good programmers among MIT grads than SUNY Potsdam grads. Imagine how mistaken that would sound if you substitute "startup founders" for "programmers." The reason you feel company filters are anything except random noise is personal bias. It's disheartening that your article notices that company pref…

Yes to this 100x. I actually did this last year with outstanding results. We were looking to bring on paid interns. We narrowed all the apps down to 5 and paid each $50 to complete real stuff that we use in our environment. 2 out of the 5 completed the work within an hour, 1 took 3 hours and the other 2 returned uncompleted work. We hired the 3 that completed the work and the one that took 3 hours ended up being the best out of them. This person also had very little prior experience but what I liked was that she stuck with the task and not only found the bug but improved some other code within the app.

All 3 ended up being very valuable and 2 of them stayed on well beyond their internship.

Oh, and these projects were done from home before we ever brought them in for an interview and we hired them before ever meeting them.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#402

Post by biztos » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:10 AM UTC

ammon wrote: post #335

Jemaclus wrote: post #20

Some companies reject people based on green card status, because they don't have the resources to sponsor them. Some companies have specific salary ranges, too. Are those factors considered during your analysis? You seem to be focusing primarily on what companies want, but sometimes what they want and what they can accept are two different things. Thoughts?

We asked about visa sponsorship. We did not ask about salary. The general pattern with visa sponsorship was that small companies don't want do it, out of concern about the success rate (only 30% of H1B applications last year won the lottery). Some large companies will sponsor visas, but they set a higher bar (they have to be really excited to take on the extra work). The exception is larger companies with teams outsi…

Doesn't this imply that a branch development office, in a country with friendlier immigration policies, should be a high priority for almost every US-based startup?

I assume most startups want to grow their engineering headcount (there are exceptions, of course). The pickier/more-focused you are about what kinds of engineers you want to hire, the more you have to gain from casting a wider net geographically.

But if you find the perfect teammate and she can't come to your main country due to visa restrictions, or maybe even won't come because the immigration story isn't worth the trouble, then what are your options?

I'm not talking about money here, though of course that will be a factor for some people. It just strikes me that the "YC companies with offices in Canada" have a serious recruiting advantage over those without, once they need to seriously grow their teams.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#403

Post by eropple » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

mquander wrote: post #395

eropple wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you shouldn't work for free . That holds true for writers, that holds true for artists, that holds true for web designers, and that holds true for programmers. And unlike those other professions, the creative has the power in this relationship. What these companies hate admitting but all know is true is that even a mediocre programmer, a sit-down-and-write-code programmer, needs these companies more than the…

I don't get why you perceive the realistic-work-sample test as "working for free", but the unrealistic-whiteboard test as "isn't work." They are both taking a similar amount of time and effort, serving the same purpose, and benefiting the same people.* The only difference is that one does a better job. *The primary beneficiary being you, if you're a top-10% programmer: It gives you a better chance to accurately show…

Work-sample tests, in my experience, are universally "do this crap and then maybe we'll talk to you." It's nothing you'll get serious feedback on, it's nothing you can open-source, it's garbage code and wasted time that benefits the company unilaterally.

But the alternative--it's not the whiteboard, it's the meeting people. Right now, I consult, but I do take interviews for "permanent positions". But we all know they aren't actually permanent positions. The last thirty years of corporatism have made this loud and clear: we are all expendable tools. and I go into them with that in mind: a W-2 doesn't mean I'm anything other than working for a client under a tax-advantageous status. Interviews are business development; I am effectively offering my exclusive services on retainer to a single company. So meeting people to discuss the gig (whether or not the whiteboard comes into play, the only interview I've been on in the last two years where I was both interested in the company and wrote code on the board was Google) benefits me, too: maybe it's not a fit, but maybe I meet somebody I'll remember as "hey, I'd like to work with them again." Or "hey, I don't want to work here, but I know somebody who will, so I can do them a solid and they can help me in the future."

So, yeah, it is work. It's just business development, which is a different, and valuable, kind of work. And it applies to everybody, not just consultants; it's the game we're all playing even if one doesn't realize they're playing it.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#404

Post by jpgvm » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:13 AM UTC

Fiahil wrote: post #109

> Almost no one passes all their programming interviews. This is true because of randomness in many interview processes (even great people are bad at some things, and an interviewer focusing on this can yield a blocking no). Reading this is somewhat reassuring. I've been over some interviews lately and I had some trouble getting past the tech phone screen. One particular rejection was very frustrating, because I've s…

At the end of the day that sort of interview process is a super huge red flag anyway.

You don't want to work with people that value that sort of knowledge over actual ability to ship good code.

Unless of course you are one of those people that cares about toy problems ofcourse, then you probably do want to work with other people like you.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#405

Post by chevman » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:17 AM UTC

sillysaurus wrote: post #338

rowborg wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For purposes of discussion, let's take it as a given that a work-hire tests are the best way to screen candidates. The effort required to administer an on-site work-hire test is non-zero, therefore I cannot administer such a test to every applicant. I therefore need a way to determine who to bring on-site, in order to administer such a test. I cannot phone screen every single applicant due to the cost involved. That…

I do. I was going to bail from this thread, but it sounds like you see the great potential that this idea can have, if it can work. The truth is that it works. Okay then, one last try: Set up a system that can spin up a droplet for a remote candidate. Any time a candidate expresses interest in your company, spin up an instance and email them a link to it. What does the link do? That depends on your company. Are you m…

I think what you're filtering for here is 'initiative'.

I don't hire programmers, but have been a hiring manager, running fairly technical business teams now for 10+ years, and have found that initiative is often the deciding factor in any given employee's success.

There are other ways to select for it, and clues you start to pick up on over the years, but once you've figured out how to gauge relative levels of initiative across different people, I've found it makes hiring/resourcing questions quite a bit easier.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#406

Post by mquander » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:27 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #403

mquander wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get why you perceive the realistic-work-sample test as "working for free", but the unrealistic-whiteboard test as "isn't work." They are both taking a similar amount of time and effort, serving the same purpose, and benefiting the same people.* The only difference is that one does a better job. *The primary beneficiary being you, if you're a top-10% programmer: It gives you a better chance to accurately show…

Work-sample tests, in my experience, are universally "do this crap and then maybe we'll talk to you." It's nothing you'll get serious feedback on, it's nothing you can open-source, it's garbage code and wasted time that benefits the company unilaterally. But the alternative--it's not the whiteboard, it's the meeting people . Right now, I consult, but I do take interviews for "permanent positions". But we all know the…

OK, I agree it's also really important to spend a few hours meeting people, and I would never accept a job where I couldn't do that first. But I am personally thrilled to be able to spend two hours demonstrating that I am a really good programmer in all of the ways that a different kind of test doesn't pick up. That seems to benefit me a lot, and it also speaks well of the future coworkers I will have if I work at the company in question. Google's process (for instance) makes me nervous about this.

(Disclaimer: I strongly prefer to quit my current job before looking for new jobs. If that weren't the case, I'm sure I would be more sensitive to anything that takes time, but I think I would still feel this way.)

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#407

Post by eropple » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:31 AM UTC

mquander wrote: post #406

eropple wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Work-sample tests, in my experience, are universally "do this crap and then maybe we'll talk to you." It's nothing you'll get serious feedback on, it's nothing you can open-source, it's garbage code and wasted time that benefits the company unilaterally. But the alternative--it's not the whiteboard, it's the meeting people . Right now, I consult, but I do take interviews for "permanent positions". But we all know the…

OK, I agree it's also really important to spend a few hours meeting people, and I would never accept a job where I couldn't do that first. But I am personally thrilled to be able to spend two hours demonstrating that I am a really good programmer in all of the ways that a different kind of test doesn't pick up. That seems to benefit me a lot, and it also speaks well of the future coworkers I will have if I work at th…

You're OK with spending two hours doing something before you get anything out of it? 'Cause I'll readily admit that there are probably companies out there that do such a test afterwards, but I've never seen one personally. Instead it's the gate to protect their precious engineers' time. Yours, though? Yours doesn't matter, and that rustles my jimmies real fierce.

Look at the opportunity costs: what if you could spend the time they want you to give them, for free, building something not only personally creditable but maybe even generally useful on Github? If you're good enough to show off, as you suggest, then your time is valuable enough that it should be respected. (A work-sample test that's a useful, valuable problem and can be open-sourced? I'd be down for that. But that would be haaaaard.)

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#408

Post by bro-stick » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:33 AM UTC

There is a subtle danger in only selecting candidate (people) whom think, act of look like you... the venture may end, not for a lack of talent or capability, but for a lack of ideas or questioning the normative, cultural convention.

Hire tortoises, hedgehogs and hares, introvert and extroverts, peacemakers and activists ... so long as there is respect, civility and productivity, because it's the "pulling" away from the center of gravity and institutional momentum that leads to exploring other great opportunities of venture successes that weren't originally founders' core product.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#409

Post by jholman » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:34 AM UTC

swalsh wrote: post #330

jcadam wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll use myself as an example -- I work as a programmer in the Defense industry. I've wanted out for years. So every so often I start sending out resumes and going on interviews. After wasting about half of my vacation time on (multiple) rounds of interviews with each prospective employer (that ultimately lead nowhere -- most often, a potential employer who inexplicably stops communicating with me), I give up. Then,…

"whiteboard hazing" there are two types of whiteboarding questions. The kind that's a perfectly reasonable thing to ask (i've had people ask me to develop some simple system... which I think is reasonable, because i'll do that as part of the job) but then there's the solve x algorithm questions. Which ultimately is an exercise in memorization. At this point I've just accepted that i'll have to do that.

The best argument for whiteboard algorithm questions is that they (to some degree) filter out people who think that whiteboard questions are "an exercise in memorization".

I mean, whether or not the company actually values the underlying non-memorization skill is another question (as someone who is very strong in that skill, I think that most companies/roles do not have a use for that, and should not test for that).

But the main argument against whiteboard coding applies equally to both kinds of questions. That argument is that it's a psychologically unrealistic environment, and that the main signal you get from such questions is whether or not the interviewee is psychologically comfortable under this particular artificial form of pressure. Does this generalize to other types of pressure? Does it generalize to the work environment at large?

I mean, me personally, I love whiteboard questions of either kind. Wheee. But I'm not convinced that the tech sector should use my hobby as the ultimate test of employability.

(PS: and for good engineers who are bad at whiteboarding in interviews, I'm available for coaching, heh)

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#410

Post by mquander » Wed, Dec 09, 2015, 1:38 AM UTC

eropple wrote: post #407

mquander wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, I agree it's also really important to spend a few hours meeting people, and I would never accept a job where I couldn't do that first. But I am personally thrilled to be able to spend two hours demonstrating that I am a really good programmer in all of the ways that a different kind of test doesn't pick up. That seems to benefit me a lot, and it also speaks well of the future coworkers I will have if I work at th…

You're OK with spending two hours doing something before you get anything out of it? 'Cause I'll readily admit that there are probably companies out there that do such a test afterwards, but I've never seen one personally. Instead it's the gate to protect their precious engineers' time. Yours, though? Yours doesn't matter, and that rustles my jimmies real fierce. Look at the opportunity costs: what if you could spend…

I just spent the past month looking around for interesting new work after quitting my last position. Two of the ten or so smaller companies I've interviewed with so far had work-sample-ish tests as part of the hiring process: Keybase and AltspaceVR. Both of them had already made my short list of potentially ideal companies to work at, and I had ample time to ask them questions and chat before doing the work sample project. (At Altspace I went and had lunch with the co-founder and the director of engineering, and also tried out their VR software.) I felt no compunction at all spending 2-3 hours doing a interview project after that. Afterward, it was clear that both companies read my work and judged me based on it.

If companies were cold emailing me on LinkedIn asking me to do their two hour project, I would not do it, but neither would I bother going to interview with them. Given that I'm already cherry-picking which companies I care about, I don't mind investing some time to make them care about me.

EDIT: I agree that it would be nicer to spend time doing something really useful. I hope that if I handed them a FOSS thingy that was representative of my ability, that these same companies would respect that in lieu of their work sample -- although standardization is valuable for evaluation purposes, so I can understand if they wouldn't. (I just did the projects they suggested because I thought they sounded fun.)