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Who Y Combinator Companies Want

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Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#291

Post by sanderjd »

ammon wrote: post #206
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best programmers do apply. Whatever you think a work-hire test is, that wasn't it. A work-hire test attracts the best programmers. It doesn't repel them. It's a chance to demonstrate their skill. It's also far better: anything is better than the fake contests they're currently forced to endure. Which would you prefer? Spend a couple hours remotely fixing some bugs and adding a feature on a fake iOS app, or spend…

EDIT: I thought that sillysaurus3 was talking about a work trial period (days or a week), but it seems they are talking about asking question during that interview that are similar to actual work. I retract me objection :) If only it were that easy. I am not at all opposed to work-trial tests. They are almost certainly more accurate. But a high percentage of programmer will never apply to a company that requires one.…

It's really frustrating when people are clearly talking around each other, and either failing to notice or willfully continuing to do it.

sillysaurus3: "Spend a couple hours remotely fixing some bugs and adding a feature on a fake iOS app"

ammon: "A failed work trial burns an entire week of vacation."

You're not talking about the same thing!

sillysaurus3 is talking about doing a small amount of work that is similar to what the company does, under conditions similar to those you would have as an employee. You seem to be talking about short trial period contract-to-hire. Yes, the thing you're talking about sucks and is a huge turnoff to candidates, but (mostly speaking for myself here) what sillysaurus3 is suggesting is massively appealing.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#292

Post by jakub_g »

perlgeek wrote: post #183
throwaway456789 wrote: post #63

I'm an "enterprise" programmer because I write in Java... I'm also older than the average age of a start-up employee (late twenties). I've never written a line of Ruby, and I've never written object oriented JavaScript or used Node.js. However, I'm a really good programmer. I just happen to write the majority of my code in Java. If tomorrow we decided to use a new language, I could pick it up in a few days... I have…

age-ism for somebody in the late twenties? That sounds, ... dunno, exaggerated or even ridiculous. I'd expected age-ism to start at the 50s or maybe 40s, but then I'm not in Silicon Valley either :-)

Can not find it now but apparently the average age of a developer in Facebook is way below 30 (27 IIRC).

I guess it could be true that in some startups if you're 29 and everyone is 22 you're not perceived a "cultural fit" (my evidence on it is purely from HN threads though)

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#293

Post by Mc_Big_G »

I've had 10+ interviews in the last month and it's really a shit process. First of all, I'm terrible at technical interviews. There's just something about being in that "we're watching your every move" environment that makes me freeze. I found myself literally reading the same for loop line over and over again, not even trying to comprehend it, but rather zoning out on it as my brain continued to focus on what I thought the interviewer was thinking. This, of course, gets worse as the seconds tick on and I've said and done nothing. I also perform terribly when I'm given a take-home "test" with a time limit. The pressure to finish on time overwhelms my thought processes. Then you have the asinine binary tree questions for a front-end web dev position or the "tell me what's wrong with this horrible, obfuscated code". If I have to work on code like that, I don't want to work there.

I had multiple interviews where I was either being video recorded (karat.io) or on a skype call with multiple developers "evaluating" me. This is a toxic environment and I knew in the first few mintutes I didn't want to work there.

I have a portfolio full of sites that I've built and I can tell you with confidence that my portfolio didn't matter even a little bit. Not one employer looked at my github account (not that it's impressive, but that says something).

The best way to get a job is through your network. A previous freelance client was hiring and pursued me aggressively. Why would they do that if I'm a shit developer as thought by my various interviewers? The experience of "interviewing" with a company that knows my work and shows a genuine enthusiasm for having me on their team is so night-and-day different from every other interview that the decision was easy. They gave me what I asked for and treat me like a valued employee.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#294

Post by karmacondon »

eropple wrote: post #227
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best programmers do apply. Whatever you think a work-hire test is, that wasn't it. A work-hire test attracts the best programmers. It doesn't repel them. It's a chance to demonstrate their skill. It's also far better: anything is better than the fake contests they're currently forced to endure. Which would you prefer? Spend a couple hours remotely fixing some bugs and adding a feature on a fake iOS app, or spend…

> A work-hire test attracts the best programmers. It doesn't repel them. I'm not the best programmer, but I'm comfortable I'd slot in the top quintile, probably top ten percent, of people that walk through a startup's door. And I'd never even return your call. No work-sample test I've ever seen would take less than four hours. That's a $550 opportunity cost for me at my standard rates. What the hell makes you think y…

If you're a top ten percent programmer who charges $137/hr then this whole discussion probably isn't oriented at you. By definition, most programmers are not in the top ten percent. They make money by sitting down and writing code, not by projecting confidence and machismo. So why shouldn't they prove their abilities and evaluate the company and it's general environment by sitting down and actually coding?

I'm very old and out of the loop, I have no idea what modern work-sample tests look like. I remember when I did one many years ago it was to the effect of "Write a script that checks to see if a URL returns a valid response code, and trigger an event if it does not". My prospective employer liked my coding style and I got hired. What was so wrong about that?

As I recall, they intended to modify the script and use it in production whether they hired me or not. I also don't care about that. It took less than an hour, and it seemed like a valid form of evaluation. Maybe it's a pride thing, but I had no problem with it and I think a lot of other people would have been ok with that practice as well.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#295

Post by cmdkeen »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #168
ammon wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cost of a real work test is much higher, both to the company, and to the applicant. Some companies take that approach (weebly for one), but it means that some of the best programmer will not apply, and it only makes worse the problem of having to aggressively pre-filter (based on credentials, or something else). You are 100% correct that most research into interviewing has show it to be far less predictive than c…

The best programmers do apply. Whatever you think a work-hire test is, that wasn't it. A work-hire test attracts the best programmers. It doesn't repel them. It's a chance to demonstrate their skill. It's also far better: anything is better than the fake contests they're currently forced to endure. Which would you prefer? Spend a couple hours remotely fixing some bugs and adding a feature on a fake iOS app, or spend…

"The best programmers" aren't all fixing bugs in iOS apps. The blog post perfectly outlined people who are motivated by other things. I don't want to work at a company where "realistic" work is me working alone on doing assigned tasks.

I identify with the "product engineer" concept they outlined, I want to talk UX and user testing in an interview not prove I can understand someone else's code base. Honestly many companies will get far more value of a programmer who has user sympathy and writes user-friendly applications than one who writes a fully tested, bug free and technically sexy app which users don't want to use.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#296

Post by tinco »

dang wrote: post #261
tinco wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well sorry to be crude, but it just signals that you're all talk. You say you're a great programmer, and could learn to program in Ruby in a few days, yet in 10 years you've never done it, even though you are apparently applying for jobs that are interested in that skill. If you can't even bother with learning the language that's requested in the advert in a few days, why should a hiring manager be interested in you?…

> Well sorry to be crude, but it just signals that you're all talk. We ask people to avoid this kind of personal slight in HN comments because it inevitably lowers the discussion. You can make a substantive point without resorting to that, so please do.

I apologize. I did not intend it as a personal slight, I was trying to make a point about presentation to potential employers, but I misunderstood the parents point and phrased it in an unfortunate manner.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#297

Post by lewisl9029 »

I apologize for being completely off-topic, but I find it completely ridiculous that we have to scroll past half the page to see the next highest-level comment.

Are there any plans for implementing collapsible comment threads?

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#298

Post by siculars »

ryandrake wrote: post #8

> "We’ve seen that most engineers only have the stomach for a limited number of interviews. Investing time in the wrong companies carries a high opportunity cost." I suspect in addition to not having the "stomach" for an unlimited number of interviews, they don't have the vacation days to burn for them. Let's say you are working already and have 10 days a year vacation (pretty standard). With these ridiculous all-day…

I don't think you could pay me enough to work for a company that only offered 10 days a year vacation on principle.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#299

Post by bjt »

Swizec wrote: post #242
ammon wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I thought that sillysaurus3 was talking about a work trial period (days or a week), but it seems they are talking about asking question during that interview that are similar to actual work. I retract me objection :) If only it were that easy. I am not at all opposed to work-trial tests. They are almost certainly more accurate. But a high percentage of programmer will never apply to a company that requires one.…

If you're getting paid for a week of work, you can take a week of unpaid vacation from your day job. No vacation days burned. No money lost.

I suspect that the flexible "unpaid vacation" scenario you're describing is much more rare than you think. If your team is pushing for a major release and you decide just not to show up, your days are numbered. If you spend the week working for another company, you are quite likely to be fired from the old one.

Ammon mentioned Weebly, above. They are one company that I've seen require an on-site week as a contractor. I know of a Weebly candidate who lost her current job because the employer considered the leave to be job abandonment. Thankfully, she got the job at Weebly. Perhaps Weebly's weeklong trial is effective for them at weeding out bad hires. But I suspect most good programmers would never consider giving up a week of their lives to an extended job interview.

Re: Who Y Combinator Companies Want

#300

Post by 542458 »

lewisl9029 wrote: post #297

I apologize for being completely off-topic, but I find it completely ridiculous that we have to scroll past half the page to see the next highest-level comment. Are there any plans for implementing collapsible comment threads?

If you search, there are lots of good plugins and bookmarklets to do the job. Yeah, it would be nice to have it built-in, but people have been asking for it for years - I don't think it's likely to happen soon.

EDIT: Apparently posting really long strings without spaces breaks HN's layout now. Hunh.

Here's my bookmarklet for that:

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