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Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

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Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#111

Post by djrogers »

stevefeinstein wrote: post #93

What does LTE-U do that you can't already do with wifi, and WiFi calling? Seems like a solution looking for a problem. Or an evil conspiracy to cripple the open, free, firmly established standard.

> What does LTE-U do that you can't already do with wifi, and WiFi calling?

It gives the telcos a way to measure and control your access to their network and services so they can bill you for it. Wifi calling offloads everything but the actual phone call to a 3rd party (i.e. not Verizon) so Verizon can't keep their fingers in the pie.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#112

Post by silverfox17 »

qb45 wrote: post #75
jhallenworld wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the good news is that LTE-U appears to be for the 5 GHz band, not 2.4 GHz. You would think that it would be easier to put micro cells in the home gateways (using the bands they already own) vs. rolling out a new capabilities on the 5 GHz band in the client (I mean won't they have to wait for Apple/Android to switch to a new generation of chips?). I guess the bad feeling is that the unlicensed bands would be used…

> Well the good news is that LTE-U appears to be for the 5 GHz band I worry that it could make the 5G band look like 2.4G looks now. I too like the idea of a piece of spectrum used mainly by consumers or small businesses and not saturated by the big commercial gorillas. If today they are desperate enough to consider running their precious services on the wild unregulated bands then sooner or later they will be desper…

Where I live we have 2 WISPs - the 5GHz band already looks like the 2.4 band. This would potentially just wreck internet service for thousands of people.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#113

Post by slavik81 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #83
gst wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still amazed how mostly everyone is praising T-Mobile for violating net neutrality with free music and video streaming. Instead of looking at the long-term effects (prices for other types of data will stay higher), everyone just looked at the short-term effects ("we get free video streaming _and_ they made data cheaper at the same time too").

Because not everyone agrees about what "net neutrality" means. On the more universally reviled end of the spectrum, you have companies attempting to charge servers to pass traffic to their (also paying) customers. On the nearly universally acceptable end of the spectrum, you have the widespread use of CDNs, or the Netflix and YouTube caching servers that they give ISPs for free. Somewhere in the middle you have wirel…

> Somewhere in the middle you have wireless ISPs offering free bandwidth to their users for use with popular services. Hard to get customers to see that as a bad thing, especially if they already use those services.

I was quite glad that the CRTC ruled against this practice in Canada. If telecoms want to run successful mobile television streaming businesses, they can start selling reasonable amounts of data with their plans.

People want bigger data plans more than they want Bell TV on their phones, so I think it got reasonable public support. Consumers groups widely applauded the ruling, at least.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#114

Post by goodmachine »

Speculating gently that this 'new' tech is intended to enable the signalling layer for LTE Direct (was FlashLinq) a quasi-P2P system, designed primarily for retailers to push stuff at you, rather than create 'classic' P2P filesharing networks. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me on this topic can join the dots...

http://www.pcworld.com/article/259680/emerging_lte_direct_st...

https://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/files/lte-direct-wh...

Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#115

Post by JoshTriplett »

slavik81 wrote: post #113
JoshTriplett wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not everyone agrees about what "net neutrality" means. On the more universally reviled end of the spectrum, you have companies attempting to charge servers to pass traffic to their (also paying) customers. On the nearly universally acceptable end of the spectrum, you have the widespread use of CDNs, or the Netflix and YouTube caching servers that they give ISPs for free. Somewhere in the middle you have wirel…

> Somewhere in the middle you have wireless ISPs offering free bandwidth to their users for use with popular services. Hard to get customers to see that as a bad thing, especially if they already use those services. I was quite glad that the CRTC ruled against this practice in Canada. If telecoms want to run successful mobile television streaming businesses, they can start selling reasonable amounts of data with thei…

> If telecoms want to run successful mobile television streaming businesses, they can start selling reasonable amounts of data with their plans.

First-party services fall in a different category; quite aside from net neutrality, that raises potential antitrust concerns.

But partnering with third-party services, especially if offering to do so with arbitrary third-party services, seems far less problematic.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#116

Post by mirimir »

mtgx wrote: post #106
jhallenworld wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well the good news is that LTE-U appears to be for the 5 GHz band, not 2.4 GHz. You would think that it would be easier to put micro cells in the home gateways (using the bands they already own) vs. rolling out a new capabilities on the 5 GHz band in the client (I mean won't they have to wait for Apple/Android to switch to a new generation of chips?). I guess the bad feeling is that the unlicensed bands would be used…

The latest Wi-Fi standard 802.11ac, which has been shipping for the past 2 years, already works only in the 5GHz band. There has been a push for Wi-Fi to work in the 5GHz band ever since the 802.11n years with the "dual-band" routers, mainly because the 2.4GHz band was getting too crowded/routers were interfering with each other through walls too easily.

Well, some of us live in homes with rooms and walls, and so 5GHz is pretty useless.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#117

Post by hardwaresofton »

nerevarthelame wrote: post #22
hardwaresofton wrote: post #5

Sitting at about 0 worries. The second Verizon (or any other company's) new wireless tech started to mess with WiFi in practice (as in, at the consumer level), and was clearly attributable, they would instantly be hit with a giant tidal wave of bad PR. Wifi works. People will not be very happy if you single-handedly break all their wifi-enabled things.

And what if it's not really clearly attributable? Imagine if there are only problems in areas with particularly high densities of LTE-U users. And even then, the problems could be sporadic, resulting in occasional wifi disconnects, or generally slower speeds. Wifi service wouldn't be "single-handedly broken," but service quality would definitely be degraded. And consumers won't be able to explain or prove why it's ha…

I think in this case, the best interests of the companies that were receiving support complaints/bad press for broken products would be motivated to find and prove out the problem.

If some product company (let's say, a router company) experienced some enormous increase in customer service and damage to brand image, I'd like to believe they'd eventually put quite a bit of money into finding out why they're losing money.

Could you imagine a world where a service rep has been instructed to ask whether a customer has any Verizon devices in the house? And to just give up, if they do, and blame Verizon? Would be terrible for Verizon's brand, pretty sure they're not ready (and probably don't want) to partition consumers who use internet-connected devices into pro-verizon and anti-verizon.

Re: Google, Microsoft, Comcast Say Verizon’s New Cellular Tech Could Wreck Wi-Fi

#120

Post by hardwaresofton »

threeseed wrote: post #34
nerevarthelame wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what if it's not really clearly attributable? Imagine if there are only problems in areas with particularly high densities of LTE-U users. And even then, the problems could be sporadic, resulting in occasional wifi disconnects, or generally slower speeds. Wifi service wouldn't be "single-handedly broken," but service quality would definitely be degraded. And consumers won't be able to explain or prove why it's ha…

And poor network performance can often be attributed to multiple components. Your WiFi is slow ? Restart your computer, upgrade your operating system, clear your browser cache, move your router closer to you, buy a different modem etc. There is plenty of room for deniability that interference is the root cause.

You're right, there definitely is (and it's obviously not a given that the service degradation would be attributable), but I think the product companies that are on the receiving end of the complaints will probably start putting money into correcting the problem (or at least rectifying public opinion) once people think the products are the problem.

Google is going to be pissed if their new wifi router doesn't work properly despite millions spent on testing, just because Verizon is screwing things up for everyone.

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